From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.sysutils.supervision.general/2680 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jens Rehsack Newsgroups: gmane.comp.sysutils.skaware,gmane.comp.sysutils.supervision.general Subject: Re: The "Unix Philosophy 2020" document Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 08:35:40 +0200 Message-ID: <34F1F095-C92D-4787-B031-BF057AF8D413@gmail.com> References: <20190831130730.ki6ma7i5curucowe@caspervector> <20190901091157.bjtfhqq6d2rg75yo@CasperVector> <20190927083816.tectynx7dzlfcvb7@CasperVector> <20191012173743.drzlgnrw4hib6hh4@CasperVector> <20191013102113.0177ff57@dickeberta> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CBD156C-C196-43E6-872C-96FED203E59C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="173348"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: "Casper Ti. Vector" , supervision-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg@public.gmane.org, skaware-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg@public.gmane.org, ska-supervision-csDn2i8iPApAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org To: Oliver Schad Original-X-From: skaware-return-1357-gcss-skaware=m.gmane.org-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg@public.gmane.org Mon Oct 14 08:35:42 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcss-skaware@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from alyss.skarnet.org ([95.142.172.232]) by blaine.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iJtxG-000iwC-Ec for gcss-skaware@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 08:35:42 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 26337 invoked by uid 89); 14 Oct 2019 06:36:06 -0000 Mailing-List: contact skaware-help-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg@public.gmane.org; run by ezmlm Original-Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Original-Received: (qmail 26318 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2019 06:36:06 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=UAT/iYVihWRIGajrvb4UtW9pe0Sd4Sx4LHcEHGsC+xs=; b=YhCtumARUjmJAUrBkp5vw5+LiQzAOgJHx1mc4bHLTPBcogyKCx/A68drLLvdANm5Go sGVaQXzGWJJNBqA+cJEmL6GPN3++f/oPiujvd7+nrqhPLYRbhMirfnCCL3wEun0MHf4C 0gvh2AcTrpTBawzPrzsscr4JUizVuPgZrJ3oH1h1ja9h5zfaAosP/reVMM6kjc9S6P+n Q+zNTXFHnia9lCoTyBUrOydXA0WpcgTFx8Rx9tsQee7nRZ67KjjkhZ3/slPedrjtPGUh 2NnsVLAKKG8X7OXuK6tmEsSXcVvedQIEDsd2xz3BOZaI7u8MErt7ilCQbJJMPP99x/FW z2Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=UAT/iYVihWRIGajrvb4UtW9pe0Sd4Sx4LHcEHGsC+xs=; b=jmkV8RfTb6ZdxpE6Me6iaztDAxEM7Hu1GpkoloM2MCgXW4oeiu3bMgifxMTulg2RTs dAJJkj87N++TVI6zHKXRvWzaHB0bAf/3XnBDQgZT5V8xs5yXDo6Uia2WtV5F4PrurIWU j/f45vxU63oUKupVTUOJFOmdfeAUmV81UVmN+Uy6YkQNvHu+IYrkuLM+uuCuSjyR9VuH yKB2KcDVL0x6wspnVJAavGta7kZBYh4vkxEj7Bd2slrf6vS1vkbaqEIk2E9ym2p+K3FY PUQ+Znf10UhuLjSSC+DR7WVdT8Q97G3Z+sfgIRp58fgIKDrw4ZQW6kiss8gHJ+5ybXkc fckw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWJBuSF88/w9AHq1ezOP7jarjMpRIRv2WgunORbLmD1IAf2/uNy L8CZp3PZBKnv7ngqOSTXALQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxuyLaup2E0zy8EFrCSkINSXU6vY7JDXcFXTYu8eNgGey6IDIoke+n3N8M4TqF1U2nxSy4zaw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4ace:: with SMTP id y14mr12760314wrs.131.1571034939117; Sun, 13 Oct 2019 23:35:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20191013102113.0177ff57@dickeberta> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.sysutils.skaware:423 gmane.comp.sysutils.supervision.general:2680 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_7CBD156C-C196-43E6-872C-96FED203E59C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Am 13.10.2019 um 10:21 schrieb Oliver Schad = : >=20 > Hi Casper, >=20 > thank you for the effort putting things together. I was asking myself > some questions. What is the target group? What is the exact purpose of > that document? >=20 > For systemd I have a more practical approach to discuss: >=20 > 1) how many config statements are there? What's the measurement to do? CFG_EVERTHING_RIGHT_QUICKLY=3D1 would be one (but insane) config statement. More isn't better and less neither. It should be as much as required. And requirements depends on goal. I think, this is a poor KPI. > 2) how many cases exist, which you have to work around (practical > setups, where a config statement is missing or do the wrong thing) Both (englisch and german) Wikipedia articles reference enormous list of issues wrt. systemd in general. Big problems - not individual ones. Collecting individual ones is maybe a stackoverflow grep away, but how about the dark ones - those who has questions without knowing that systemd eat the low-level infrastructure and wonder - eg. where the dhcpcd went to ... > 3) how many bugs/feature requests are opened over time and how long = does > it take to solve them? This is probably a wrong question. More features is likely not the analyzation to do :D > 4) how big is the memory footprint and for which systems this is too > much? Compared to what? One can easily build some embedded images using e.g. OE or Yocto or E2. But having one system with systemd (and all it's belongings) and another (simple) one is comparing plums with melons. Systems with a touchscreen and Qt5 interface and attached NFC readers etc. might have a similar memory footprint with all services with and without systemd. The better question is: can you tune? > 5) how many lines of code? Also: what do you compare? I don't repeat from above. Maybe flexibility in choice of tool is a reasonable KPI, or portability, location of configuration (per service, over all), atomicity of = configuration changes, easiness of customization (even rocket science is no rocket science anymore, but you need a particular skill level - where is it?), how active is the community, easiness of debugging in error situations and so on. Also, http://www.mewburn.net/luke/papers/rc.d.pdf could be worth reading = ;) But yes, you need some metrics. You also need to define scenarios first, eg. datacenter BI algorithm machine vs. traffic light controller. There is a big range ... > So you would have metrics - especially if you compare them to other > solutions. If you want to have more food, make more metrics (call = graph > complexity or whatever). But there are simple metrics, which shows the > result(!) of the design. Talking about the design itself is really a > personal opinion otherwise and very lengthy and needs a lot of > knowledge to follow. >=20 > For the philosophy itself there are some parts missing in my opinion: > what does that really mean what you're talking about in practical > solution? >=20 > Is there a practical approach anywhere, interface definition, > architecture? You describe a few patterns ok - but they are really > common. I don't get really, which people would help this document. >=20 > Maybe that thing is missing: if somebody would like to build a modern > UNIX: what are practical steps to achieve it? >=20 > Which tools, which interfaces (kernel, userland) are needed? Cheers -- Jens Rehsack - rehsack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org --Apple-Mail=_7CBD156C-C196-43E6-872C-96FED203E59C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEGutaqWUYV+tvC/mCRJmWrtzlCp0FAl2kFzwACgkQRJmWrtzl Cp1h4xAAh14NaBRa1/uqVIFNSHEVqL4DNOR4pjRw7rfnp/LjRGaymh90JodWvRxx hvUmyqXS4D+29Q6g6vivy53+Bib8JwrNFB1HVOCHlfnlvzlfYHZeXS8tWPwvHjWc OOQ1Rkr+AglKRH1bpaYcIg5E8hWMIt+D9h9rFncDyUQ67nl+hYOH/nR4IgD7zpyy YFXsoZziN6SCsMjs0V/FsLduNMjdwBTQWTpBz+EcE+/jlTVYffL/micx6RCYt1fV OX0h99jjHEpgVBer/lUu2vvgUXXRWHLNhodQSKi2gV5e3SdyWNql8H66+koA6mHP Nw1FxHW+bxuBnaASYFTVo1QH5OpWfN+6NaGFfqc+3yqLfS+/YVBXnV++aKRj4CTU alBL/+Na1YHWQ/Ao49ra2A5o87yeY7yz9TNM82f1CbFymGyk8tFWwj3maFxlGWqB TPtvJJRAU8jGGrCiNecf3PvZRwfbFsQjmk8X8E70FZtnHC3uA0ZiBP7DBcFhrmyA Far/JJmlACJgxzKueeulNQa/nbc1EPZPIMZF4/exLQ8RsgDCsD7sMz9tlYzLAFBH pfBFW3Uy2AekXgv0/DWICLlplkabvtCiv6dCNlrUijCO1FVbJiXx3y8kvNZNMYeZ leiquPLv3BqF7gQGec4BYBrzyrLQaE18sbvwVq5JHHyk+8DlaIo= =v0Vt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7CBD156C-C196-43E6-872C-96FED203E59C--