From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_24_48, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1469 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2023 06:11:43 -0000 Received: from alyss.skarnet.org (95.142.172.232) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Apr 2023 06:11:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 6113 invoked by uid 89); 10 Apr 2023 06:12:07 -0000 Mailing-List: contact supervision-help@list.skarnet.org; run by ezmlm Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Received: (qmail 6106 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2023 06:12:07 -0000 X-SourceIP: 82.21.120.173 X-Authenticated-Sender: J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM X-Spam: 0 X-Authority: v=2.4 cv=PtFVLSA3 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6433a89b cx=a_exe a=ZwFDrNcBZCEFJ5/d6y5G6w==:117 a=ZwFDrNcBZCEFJ5/d6y5G6w==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=dKHAf1wccvYA:10 a=Ye9q-bpsAAAA:8 a=7PdMRTZFDwyosp6pSpQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ntlworld.com; s=meg.feb2017; t=1681107099; bh=LT8L+M6nYfZx6+v+/860XRpOFzJ94AM0AWLLMVTaGa8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=4iMML3Zf7oRoY0mDVS9vljwoydYoYuxZ2DJkBRTPNoby4hZiw29mwrsRuQo+e6NDK imlZ4GCG7mBWAOIIFS+BaVSwCQcuCRQU8ftESk3MfzhFqMKHreM5p/4LP1ANJmJcno RmtOOv+Ny3tT5zYOfZCtqzBhdEJlU2W/qQvfsw0/upd6763Jko5cvoibeGEI0vgSAT O2pa2DuHkcdc3sESbKsKQpTUPmv48Ger1tN3kIDeA7sNDSO/fxgMBLmTa7XpoQ3XYj NhwJBECq4ayWneD8sFClGFVTPUtQ7dGuyDQ8aPMfg1XFYwQ09m0UyR++LX5tkQAog8 K72uNmgLVqxqQ== Subject: Re: [svlogd] / -ttt / why UTC? To: "supervision@list.skarnet.org" References: <1799590563.259018.1680775861585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1799590563.259018.1680775861585@mail.yahoo.com> <1799016718.299578.1680785234404@mail.yahoo.com> <1521010095.494363.1680813470706@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard Message-ID: <8c467d4b-7e60-d581-563d-c2b9c84a286b@NTLWorld.COM> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 07:11:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1521010095.494363.1680813470706@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfBayhEZ+X4+jQO/WUW3jHg2ztk54ryNJh6QLL0u7mNGKELbX3qjd/XTbPbIm6WhCzGZPZVV56U9SNQRg3ArvQuajz50gExkNi4SL5SflndrhEAMJJFZD r+wlcJoGUnFodfos023Nj4nkizvEthLwGikT6GwdbRKRD0hxlKt/Fur8WXN9TW08F33J9NW7JF9aLKfOWJ/1R9n0G2G2sGipQeGihmdvQIzgeNU/VnGIButp JMX7awV9HX01E/LzMv8pGQ== >> Yes. You cannot set your system clock to TAI, unless you want wildly >> incorrect results from time() and similar system calls. Setting it 10 >> seconds earlier than TAI is the best you can do; and that's what the >> right/ timezones expect. >> > > In my world time() returns the SI seconds since the start of 1970. > Since TAI and UTC were off for fractions of a second from 1970 to the > end of 1972 might be true, but my applications dont care for that time > so much... > M. Bercot's point, which you edited out, is that what xe means by "TAI-10" is exactly that, because what you say here is untrue. TAI was different from UTC by over 10 seconds, not by merely fractions of 1 second, and the "start of 1970" in one was not the "start of 1970" in the other. People don't use TAI in Unices and Linux-based operating systems. They use what is more accurately termed TAI-10; because there aren't versions of the timezone support data files (supplied "out of the box") that count SI seconds and use "start of 1970" TAI, only ones that count SI seconds and use "start of 1970" UTC, i.e. "start of 1970" TAI-10. * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/327403/5132 And whereas on an operating system like OpenBSD one should expect both "right" and "posix" timezones to be supported, and any inconsistencies in applications to be corrected with patches in ports, on Linux-based operating systems the hotch-potch nature of the various language runtime libraries and application repositories does not given one nearly as much confidence that it's all correct. Well done for trying to push corrections back to the authors; but that makes you in a better position than most to agree with M. Bercot that the state of the applications and Linux-based operating systems as supplied leaves a little to be desired for TAI-10 operation. But as M. Bercot and I both say, the major single offender here is {x,}ntpd. > I think, i will write socklog&svlogd myself... > Personally, I just go with the Bernstein timestamps. Then I can convert to whatever human-readable form that I like, without touching the raw log files or having to worry about parsing log files with locale-dependent formats in them; even reading the same log entries in multiple different timezones and locales if I really want to.