From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30594 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2022 21:28:38 -0000 Received: from alyss.skarnet.org (95.142.172.232) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 5 Aug 2022 21:28:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 4966 invoked by uid 89); 5 Aug 2022 21:29:01 -0000 Mailing-List: contact supervision-help@list.skarnet.org; run by ezmlm Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Received: (qmail 4957 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2022 21:29:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=j4Mr/an+9kG5zwmAPKzwu59pGlq54ErGNv7N575ua9c=; b=HlqR2z8mWvWTDIyPI7YgENSynIVZStUgbOejI9EyT1jDjn+D31Unf6NDHEsq+lwiz4 7LzHtLaQ0eL2O4kbaU2j20Pj3HPA/pb8NbRcnE52C0qsLxku+LlFmvcMw9SKi5YWvek9 GIXl5RWoQBzL38kfNetQG9ULFQSQABsUe1xZtlZc6VVuuLVjxoUmNf3+wxsCiXptB60Q MaCXqhfDv/g0IwUp/Bi3s43qwPleUTGkYUpSP8AYjbqrR3TL/PB7tSlrAe9P8ZGWUUG6 tbmwfxvsMkdSoIWsZMjHII8SPIczBdoiJH/wmr+Sdpkf5kF2c6Ky1Gq/z5DPlURNgS3U 4FSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=j4Mr/an+9kG5zwmAPKzwu59pGlq54ErGNv7N575ua9c=; b=dfbrwxkMAgNVRDNy+v+tn1OYDBVSv2eYgnntDfULRBgyGdhHJ9B67zhlkJc81qOCQO FL+YBljrBAZTBGOENE5bx21OLCkuCe0KmJLOH/pNSkCF6heh4qFiDHLBB640/nQoXoWd yzJHl+8zC2duD/4MItCpmbKZq0twDUgXHiEtI81accHmIt5HPp6+kl8T2oZgmJfzBbLW 1Yf+pr+pkGO7QIlrb9z+56xAuR0PpFvdbEWaE7tz77OElx3oKsJHEDwx13nKB8byj/C9 RwRRjPKJ9ITVsBblPunmqsI0i8xz2qWEH7e+AJ7Apahw0YUvxhBMsxmzwY0HXZap7Sgy LFqw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo1uPLqG7XcRfHfC7WpO8pXQtlnUExHwdATF5PaIHCrIL7T5KVz6 jNsnHCxNTi41uF3lT81PW8TRaEH8qk+zwTbBibt1gvTH X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7AiLlv855t/7AhTRHZaTrUWHafkHTsAUEQ+5eV1d3DUoLFmTDxV26lZCxS0ZaaZ5PKtiNNaIsByEPz9ZAdccY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:848b:b0:16d:4c6b:bf00 with SMTP id c11-20020a170902848b00b0016d4c6bbf00mr8484526plo.58.1659734911259; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 14:28:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4234078aeca178d4b1b5136a9463617d97cef66b.camel@troubleshooters.com> <75OjPiNdg7k-TrGOB10JwBnln7qJjJRtcsOdg1Dm_gk72TwWJ2Te1njPOEgXz-khoRDvkvqjOfB2kUNj5_iAXtoHivgeGVZwoUzvQod4vIo=@so.dang.cool> <7ee45cee99f3f84093ca674ac5caaf1e6a8b8421.camel@troubleshooters.com> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Fitzpatrick Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2022 16:28:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Be prepared for the fall of systemd To: Laurent Bercot Cc: supervision@list.skarnet.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce9a3505e5852529" --000000000000ce9a3505e5852529 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trying this again since my first response wasn't archived. I'm not familiar with mailing lists. --- I'll echo what Tanuj said to some degree. If you want to sniff systemd's level of adoption, I view these three things as critical, in decreasing order of importance. 1. An advertising page. 2. Better guides, written by someone who knows wtf they're doing (like Ludovic Court=C3=A8s or Steve Klabnik), in close communication with Laurent Bercot. Ideally, there should be two separate guides: - System integrator guide - End-user guide 3. Good test coverage, ideally with a CI to help maintainers review PRs. You can further reduce noise and improve quality by gating contributors with a Contributor Agreement (CA). On Thu, Aug 4, 2022, 5:33 AM Laurent Bercot wrote: > > >What do we as a community need to do > >to get S6 into a "corporate friendly" state? > > > >What can I do to help? > > "Corporate-friendly" is not really the problem here. The problem is > more "distro-friendly". > > Distributions like integrated systems. Integrated systems make their > lives easier, because they reduce the work of gluing software pieces > together (which is what distros do). Additionally, they like stuff like > systemd or openrc because they come with predefined boot scripts that, > more or less, work out of the box. > > There are two missing pieces in the s6 ecosystem before it can be > embraced by distributions: > > 1. A service manager. That's what's also missing from runit. Process > supervisors are good, but they're not service managers. You can read > why here[1]. > In case you missed it, here is the call for sponsors I wrote last year, > explaining the need for a service manager for s6: [2]. It has been > answered, and I'm now working on it. It's going very slowly, because I > have a lot of (easier, more immediately solvable) stuff to do on the > side, and the s6-rc v1 project is an order of magnitude more complex > than what I've ever attempted before, so it's a bit scary and needs me > to learn new work habits. But I'm on it. > > 2. A high-level, user-friendly interface, which I call "s6-frontend". > Distros, and most users, like the file-based configuration of systemd, > and like the one-stop-shop aspect of systemctl. s6 is lacking this, > because it's made of several pieces (s6, s6-linux-init, s6-rc, ...) and > more automation-friendly than human-friendly (directory-based config > instead of file-based). I plan to write this as well, but it can only > be done once s6-rc v1 is released. > > Once these pieces are done, integration into distributions will be > *much* easier, and when a couple distros have adopted it, the rest > will, slowly but surely, follow suit. Getting in is the hard part, and > I believe in getting in by actually addressing needs and doing good > technical work more than by complaining about other systems - yes, > current systems are terrible, but they have the merit of existing, so > if I think I can do better, I'd rather stfu and do better. > > > >Here are some ideas: > >- easier access to the VCS (git, pijul, etc) > > The git repositories are public: [3] > They even have mirrors on github. > All the URLs are linked in the documentation. I don't see how much > easier > I can make it. > > Note that the fact that it's not as easy to submit MRs or patches as > it is with tools like gitlab or github is intentional. I don't want to > be dealing with an influx of context-free MRs. Instead, if people want > to change something, I'd like *design discussions* to happen on the ML, > between human beings, and when we've reached an agreement, I can either > implement the change or accept a patch that I then trust will be > correctly written. It may sound dictatorial, but I've learned that > authoritarian maintainership is essential to keeping both a project's > vision and its code readability. > > > >- Issue tracking system > > The supervision ML has been working well so far. When bigger parts > of the project (s6-rc v1 and s6-frontend) are done, there may be a > higher volume of issues, if only because of a higher volume of users, so > a real BTS may become an asset more than a hindrance at some point. > We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. > > > >- CI/CD build chain (being careful not to make it too painful to use) > > Would that really be useful? The current development model is sound, > I think: the latest numbered release is stable, the latest git head > is development. The s6 ecosystem can be built with a basic > configure/make/make install invocation, is it really an obstacle to > adoption? > > I understand the need for CI/CD where huge projects are concerned, > people don't have the time or resources to build these. I don't think > the s6 ecosystem qualifies as a huge project. It won't even be "huge" > by any reasonable metric when everything is done. It needs to be > buildable on a potato-powered system! > > > >- "idiot proof" website > >- quick start / getting started guide > >- easier access (better?) Documentation > > I file these three under the same entry, which is: the need for > community tutorials. And I agree: the s6 documentation is more of a > reference manual, it's good for people who already know how it all works > but has a very steep learning curve, and beginner-to-intermediate > tutorials are severely lacking. If the community could find the time > to write these, it would be a huge help. Several people, myself > included, > have been asking for them for years. (For obvious reasons, I can't be > the one writing them.) > > Turns out it's easier to point out a need than to fulfill it. > > It's the exact same thing as the s6 man pages. People can whine and > bitch > and moan for ages saying that some work needs to be done, but when > asked whether they'll do it, suddenly the room is deathly silent. > For the man pages, one person eventually stepped up and did the work[4] > and I'm forever grateful to them; I have no doubt that the same will > happen with tutorials at some point, but when? Who knows. > > > [1]: https://skarnet.org/software/s6-rc/why.html > [2]: https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html > [3]: https://git.skarnet.org/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/ > [4]: https://github.com/flexibeast/s6-man-pages > > -- > Laurent > > --000000000000ce9a3505e5852529--