From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from alyss.skarnet.org (alyss.skarnet.org [95.142.172.232]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D82630669 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:14:20 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 62519 invoked by uid 89); 6 Dec 2024 17:14:43 -0000 Mailing-List: contact supervision-help@list.skarnet.org; run by ezmlm Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Received: (qmail 62512 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2024 17:14:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sopka.ch; s=default; t=1733505253; bh=F/6MLBYCSylaxK6J5o+Y9AV5NQx+uZorOCJkVEtiBwA=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From; b=GyO2kysz3t7pNYBwKCUn9tsmwqMXJm0hKf5f3bc5zwtcEbFYMeeXSSq7nX0U3TdXc rXCyBGG+8BXUJZ+hOWxJjRWuOc7bphtpb9Js3wj/geKk7w+ETHk6HOmhI6JUn2rSje KwvkBBg4uBXgdwVr7ygOEPpgOGKGhZTtJQftIWZ47l3FMI8pC4Wo17KZd1RUGakzMZ igD8tJsm/zTkDFS1UyPPPPvOPcKOI80ot/uS03Xc+bFopndQ8e9eA/QsoB2EXeeupB icUmjOResgqX2O7rUbEsRGy1ti6WWp33vABLBlf0YT8GOXFLd8LlW+PS3Z6BuuLSZ0 hFbWx6faMGGiw== Authentication-Results: plesk.origon.ch; spf=pass (sender IP is 127.0.0.1) smtp.mailfrom=psopka@sopka.ch smtp.helo=plesk.origon.ch Received-SPF: pass (plesk.origon.ch: localhost is always allowed.) client-ip=127.0.0.1; envelope-from=psopka@sopka.ch; helo=plesk.origon.ch; Authentication-Results: plesk.origon.ch (amavis); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sopka.ch Received-SPF: pass (plesk.origon.ch: connection is authenticated) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:14:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Have an external script wait for a oneshot service To: supervision@list.skarnet.org, Laurent Bercot References: <20241204140015.4e635037306d88117e053994@freesa.org> <2571a89b-ac74-4d9e-b8c6-ff0fe05cebb7@sopka.ch> <20241204141821.ee2a00c996c948f2feb42dec@freesa.org> <4faed412-6fc0-4833-8f76-b6a74667c869@sopka.ch> <3d1391e4-b240-4675-a839-a34c39d474b3@sopka.ch> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Sopka Autocrypt: addr=psopka@sopka.ch; keydata= xsFNBGW5FlEBEACi9wDm7vnwoxMy6ejpZQh2Z1Mpr4fTKJyWLn3sZFAjmQKcsT/ORt0rVSBO 5eXoGjbk5Hor2l67mui85a4KWawHbYFC95hpA9K/alfGyQH56SnL5G55DDcz3avkLrJ9bHJD 4y4ScEzweYW2IjYr90FKqZWWcdqzYDqmqRtf5/rdkmY6YVtpBISIfYNbBRPE3CJuY7HOpQ4s qAmb5iRsXN38hv7UQj9MsJl5Q0cxgcFcRGy9dAM5voX1Xh+h9svS1MZuaxzyLR0YvCzAcY8c 7uUsXjj67/NmeHpl5pYHiT19g/wcHbudYLI+pikx4EcskinZ1peZbrbBdVdBeOtukBzaMuFe dOcSpAWbDDK7e4cwZnPse130FjNECzIrNAB2lK2rb9f2PCyZSRCW7QBG63IUREWZTLBm47Dy avMzh+wGV6Jx6kigdngJDtIXXDzw2ZWAMMT2MEPX4HC1POH8b1DZ/QxzC+2SQbJNfrQitm0K kOo8o2gqMpuBABAYzQwRJXNteeW5ZccbgdQ0+m61kV/P71bmeiasvJGyecxzOfRUDei7b3Lh 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supervision@list.skarnet.org, Laurent Bercot Message-ID: Subject: Re: Have an external script wait for a oneshot service References: <20241204140015.4e635037306d88117e053994@freesa.org> <2571a89b-ac74-4d9e-b8c6-ff0fe05cebb7@sopka.ch> <20241204141821.ee2a00c996c948f2feb42dec@freesa.org> <4faed412-6fc0-4833-8f76-b6a74667c869@sopka.ch> <3d1391e4-b240-4675-a839-a34c39d474b3@sopka.ch> In-Reply-To: --------------edU15xycyetOVcBORGqjq70d Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FEmJ00RSg04nTdm4Tblzkisn" --------------FEmJ00RSg04nTdm4Tblzkisn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1PKS944IQzZiDbIYmxqz0wEx" --------------1PKS944IQzZiDbIYmxqz0wEx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Rmlyc3Qgb2YgYWxsLCBpZiB5b3UgZ2V0IHRpcmVkIG9mIHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiwganVz dCB0ZWxsIG1lIGFuZCBJIA0Kd2lsbCBzdG9wIGJvdGhlcmluZyB5b3UuDQpJLCBmb3IgbXkg cGFydCwgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSBncmVhdCBqb3kgZnJvbSB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24hDQoNCklm 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First of all, if you get tired of this discussion, just tell me and I will stop bothering you.
I, for my part, experience great joy from this discussion!

If you are still interested, here you go:

=C2=A0And both can be solved without s6-r= c in a simpler way than with it.
Why do you think it is simpler?
It is one oneshot less, at the cost of running s6 only and s6-rc services side by side
and lacking dependency management (see Ho=C3=ABl's mail).

Besides, I suppose one being this:

fusermounting= some network/encrypted filesystem comes to mind.
e.g. mount a NAS share so that a longrun snooze "cronjob" can record a
livestream to it.

=C2=A0Okay. I'd argue it's still under the complexity line where doing
this manually - fuser(un)mounting at snooze service (de)installation
time - is easier and faster than setting up an s6-rc infrastructure.
But this to me seems like saying "why not mount devfs in the longrun starting mdevd/udevd?"

=C2=A0Yeah. So do I. Do you have any idea= how difficult it is to make
distribution maintainers adopt the s6 paradigms? Change their habits
even a little bit? Do you have any idea of the inertia I've had to
bump against, again and again? When I tell you "make this simpler",
it's not because Joe Schmoe won't understand your stuff. It's because
Power Maintainer Dan J. Hacker won't want to jump through two hoops
so you better make sure there's only one.
I can only imagine. But that's why I am doing this,
so that everybody like minded can have a working base structure to use s6/s6-rc.

=C2=A0If that really was what you're tryi= ng to do, you'd listen to me.
I listen to you and I really try to understand your point,
I am just not convinced (yet?).

=C2=A0Look, I <= span class=3D"moz-txt-tag">*like* s6-rc. I'm happy that you like it too. I'm happy that
you want to use it. I'm happy when people use my stuff. Don't get me
wrong. But what I like even more is when the right tool is used for a
job, in the right place, with the right glue. That's what makes life
simpler for everyone, truly.
I wholeheartedly agree, our disagreement lies somewhere else.

=C2=A0The vast majority of services a use= r will want to have are longruns.
And longruns are run under s6; longrun service definition directories
are pretty much s6 service directories. I don't think it's honest to
say "you only need to learn s6-rc, not s6"; the s6-rc learning curve
*inc= ludes* learning at least the fundamentals of s6.
I fully agree, scrap what I have written concerning this.
I want to mention though what always using s6-rc makes the experience more consistent.

But I'm not adding hooks to s6-rc to
support notification of intermediary states to external programs, because
I simply don't believe it's how it should be used.
I respect that.


I would be interested in what you think about the other points in my previous mail, especially:

I have assumed that the scan-directory of= the user-tree is mounted tmpfs.
This would require additional support in 1a/2a
to save the state of the scan-directory on shutdown and load it on boot.
Or let s6-rc-init and s6-rc do this work, by adding the service to the user-tree bundle "default"
and running s6-rc for each user-tree at boot.

What is the "little more" you are talking= about?

I do not see where this exceeds "little".=
and whether:

I have assumed that the scan-directory of= the user-tree is mounted tmpfs.
Is a good idea in the first place.


Finally, I believe to have found (thanks to our discussion making me think) an even better solution:
(note the paths / filenames being only exemplary)

1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have a system-longrun create/mount /run/user/= ${USER} tmpfs and start s6-svscan on /run/user/${USER}/service

2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have an (optional) oneshot do the following:<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 a) Take a lock on /run/user/${USER= }/s6-rc-lock

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 b) If { /run/user/${USER}/s6-rc do= es not exist } s6-rc-init

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 c) s6-rc start default

3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have the login script

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 a) Take a lock on /run/user/${USER= }/s6-rc-lock

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 b) If { /run/user/${USER}/s6-rc do= es not exist } s6-rc-init

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 c) s6-rc start login

This does not require waiting for a system-oneshot,
it allows people like you to not have s6-rc run for users on boot and allows people like me to manage it everything with s6-rc.
Additionally it cleanly decouples boot user-s6-rc from login user-s6-rc,
in that the latter do not require the former to be prepared.


so who am I to say otherwise.
You are the creator of the best pieces of software I could discover on the internet so far.
Thank you for writing it!

Regards

Paul

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