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* State of skarnet.org projects
@ 2020-02-02  9:34 Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 10:34 ` fungal-net
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Laurent Bercot @ 2020-02-02  9:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: skaware-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg, supervision-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg


  Hello,

  A small update on my current projects.

  - Most important skarnet.org packages are due a new release. If only
to fix a bug that prevents them from properly installing shared 
libraries
in some cases.

  - The release hasn't been cut yet because things are still evolving and
I don't want to tag a release right before I need to add some
functionality. (Which, by Murphy's law, always happens anyway.)

  - Everything is available, and builds, on the projects' git head. If
you build from git, please be aware that you always need the latest
version of all the software in the dependency chain.

  - Some things are *only* available from git because the project they're
a part of is much bigger and far from complete, but pieces of the
functionality are already in.


  And for some specifics:

  - The next execline release has been ready for some time and just needs
some external testing. (Hint, hint.) The new thing is a posix-umask
program. When it's released, execline will be fully POSIX-compliant
(when built with the --enable-pedantic-posix option).
  As an aside, posix-umask was a lot of fun to write. Unlike posix-cd.

  - The next s6 version, among other things, has an option to disable
its dependency on execline, which hopefully will alleviate a lot of
the FUD surrounding it. Of course, disabling the execline dep will make
some minor functionality unavailable. And since s6-log is vital, there
is a new '?' s6-log directive to launch a processor under /bin/sh.

  - The next s6-linux-init has options that make it usable in containers.
The plan is to use it to work on a new version of s6-overlay that would
be lighter, faster, and less clunky.

  - Following a discussion that happened here last December, there is a
new s6-frontend git repository, which currently only holds a series of
binaries designed to provide daemontools- and runit-like interfaces to
s6 programs. The emulation is not perfect, in particular lots of runit
interfaces cannot be exactly mapped to s6 interfaces because the
architecture is too different, but the main ones are there. So if you
are used to controlling your services with sv, you can switch to s6
and keep using sv while porting your scripts (and getting used) to the
native s6 interfaces.


  Nothing's decided yet, but I may embark on a programming project for
one year or so for a professional contract within the next month, which
won't leave me many programming brain cells for skarnet.org. So, if you
have feature requests, or bug-reports, things I forgot to integrate, or
anything to send me, now would be the time: I'd like to cram as much
minor stuff as possible into the next releases before a potentially
dormant period.

--
  Laurent



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02  9:34 State of skarnet.org projects Laurent Bercot
@ 2020-02-02 10:34 ` fungal-net
  2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: fungal-net @ 2020-02-02 10:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision


Is it 10 years now that s6 has been around, more or less.  For 10 year
old software of its nature it appears as the best kept secret.  There
are 3 distributions openly available to various levels of users'
expertise, that are now utilizing s6 init and supervision, Obarun for 4
years, Adelie for about 1, and Artix for a few days.  Void is also very
close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in many ways
being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown by arch daily.

This should open up the base of people using s6 in a variety of
architectures and purposes, and will inevitably stress test the ability
and reliability of s6, while it may create a significant stress to
skarnet's ability to communicate with all this testing feedback.

I'd like to know what is your view and feeling of this expanding base,
what does it mean to you, and whether you see an influence of the
project by the growing popularity.  If I can interpret this announcement
correctly you seem already to be reacting to the Debian s6 incorporation
fiasco more than the projects who have treated s6 with greater respect.

In solidarity
Gus


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 10:34 ` fungal-net
@ 2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03  9:40     ` fungal-net
  2020-02-03 19:28     ` mobinmob
  2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Steve Litt @ 2020-02-02 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:

> Void is also
> very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
> many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown by
> arch daily.

Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both, to
a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.

It seems trivial to me to deploy s6 stage 2 and migrate all my runit
stage2 to s6 stage 2. However, migrating stage 1 sounds to me like an
Einsteinian task. Runit's stage 1 repeatedly loops through .d
directories in what I find to be an unobvious way.

It seems to me that Void is getting more popular every day, and Void
could serve as a Rosetta Stone between runit and s6. I'd appreciate any
documentation you have or will write in the future concerning your use
of s6* on Void.

Thanks,
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 10:34 ` fungal-net
  2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 14:38     ` Project funding: was " Steve Litt
                       ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Laurent Bercot @ 2020-02-02 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: fungalnet, supervision


>I'd like to know what is your view and feeling of this expanding base,
>what does it mean to you, and whether you see an influence of the
>project by the growing popularity.  If I can interpret this announcement
>correctly you seem already to be reacting to the Debian s6 incorporation
>fiasco more than the projects who have treated s6 with greater respect.

  I don't quite understand what you mean.
  I love that the s6 base is expanding, I really appreciate that we have
a community around it, and I've always been committed to supporting it.

  I keep repeating that I'm always willing to help people who are trying
to integrate s6 in their projects; it just so happens that, for many
excellent reasons, I don't get many requests. But when people reach out
to me, I try to make good on the promise: for instance, making
s6-linux-init sysvinit-compatible was a request from Adélie Linux; it
took about two weeks of vacation time and a few week-ends; 100% worth,
because that's what made it possible to have s6 as init in Adélie, which
I'm very happy with and grateful to the whole Adélie community for.

  The big pain point for further s6 integration in distros, as _every
single one_ of those I contacted told me, is the user interface, and 
that
UX return is basically driving my career. It is a big project that will
need a lot of focused, uninterrupted time, so I'm currently trying to
max out my earnings over 3 years so I'm able to take a whole year off to
work on that project.

  The Debian thing is a minor annoyance; it took two week-ends and a 
couple
evenings to address it. You see me address minor annoyances more than 
The
Big Request because it's all I have time and energy for while working on
an outside contract. Maintenance things, tweaks around the edges, light
QoL adjustments, and community support on IRC; no big developments.

  So, in that context, I don't understand your point; could you clarify?

  On a related note, it should now be obvious that the main obstacle to
further s6 growth is the lack of time I can spend on it, and that comes
directly from the need to self-fund. As a consequence (and I'm 
addressing
the whole community here), if you like s6 - or other projects of mine -
and want to see it become more widely adopted, the best thing you can do
is find me sponsors! Long-term sponsoring would allow me to work on 
these
projects full-time, and *then* they would take off.

--
  Laurent



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Project funding: was State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
@ 2020-02-02 14:38     ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-02 15:37       ` Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 14:42     ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03 10:36     ` fungal-net
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Steve Litt @ 2020-02-02 14:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 14:22:31 +0000
"Laurent Bercot" <ska-supervision@skarnet.org> wrote:



>   On a related note, it should now be obvious that the main obstacle
> to further s6 growth is the lack of time I can spend on it, and that
> comes directly from the need to self-fund. As a consequence (and I'm 
> addressing
> the whole community here), if you like s6 - or other projects of mine
> - and want to see it become more widely adopted, the best thing you
> can do is find me sponsors! 

Finding long term sponsors is a kind of sales I'm not experienced in,
but I can probably get people to contribute on a one-time or
intermittent basis. Do you have a contributions page that takes Paypal?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 14:38     ` Project funding: was " Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-02 14:42     ` Steve Litt
       [not found]       ` <20200202094227.2084ed54-s1DAj2AW31EXSucajVqtjwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
  2020-02-03 10:36     ` fungal-net
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Steve Litt @ 2020-02-02 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 14:22:31 +0000
"Laurent Bercot" <ska-supervision@skarnet.org> wrote:

>   The big pain point for further s6 integration in distros, as _every
> single one_ of those I contacted told me, is the user interface,

Do you mean they don't like editing files and creating symlinks? Do
they want a GUI interface to the service directory tree and the symlink
tree?

>  and 
> that
> UX return 

What is UX?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Project funding: was State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:38     ` Project funding: was " Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-02 15:37       ` Laurent Bercot
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Laurent Bercot @ 2020-02-02 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steve Litt, supervision, skaware


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 670 bytes --]

>Finding long term sponsors is a kind of sales I'm not experienced in,
>but I can probably get people to contribute on a one-time or
>intermittent basis. Do you have a contributions page that takes Paypal?

  I don't, for the reasons explained here:
  https://twitter.com/laurentbercot/status/1209247040657674240

  Also, I want to make a living, not pocket change; I want a job, not
charity. As good and well-intentioned as one-time or intermittent
donations are, as much as I would appreciate them, if they don't add up
to something I can live from, then they don't help solve the original
problem of my needing to work on paid contracts.

--
  Laurent

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
       [not found]       ` <20200202094227.2084ed54-s1DAj2AW31EXSucajVqtjwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
@ 2020-02-02 15:58         ` Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 21:24           ` eric vidal
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Laurent Bercot @ 2020-02-02 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steve Litt, supervision-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg,
	skaware-cfaJnhaL+FNC7f45DRzWBg

>Do you mean they don't like editing files and creating symlinks? Do
>they want a GUI interface to the service directory tree and the symlink
>tree?

No, it's about service startup with s6-rc. They don't want to dive into
the unpalatable blobs that are the set of systemd unit files or the set
of openrc init scripts (and I can undertand their reluctance); and
they don't want to make the effort of understanding the s6-rc syntax and
creating s6-rc source directories (and that's something I'm sure you can
relate with ;)). They want a service startup configuration format that's
close to what they are used to, typically text files that are easy for
a human to read.

Ideally, they'd want systemd unit files. Which is not gonna happen,
because the format of these files maps the systemd architecture too
closely and there are lots of things that would be expressed differently
under a s6-linux-init/s6/s6-rc system; but a text-based configuration
engine is totally doable, it's just a long project.

They also want high-level commands like "service" or "openrc" to control
the machine state without having to undertand the nitty-gritty of
"s6-rc change", or the difference between "s6-rc -d change foo" and
"s6-svc -d /run/service/foo". Which makes sense: can *you* tell me what
this difference is? :)

All of this will be solved by s6-frontend, but that's not something I
can work on in the evenings.


>What is UX?

  User experience.

--
  Laurent



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 15:58         ` Laurent Bercot
@ 2020-02-02 21:24           ` eric vidal
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: eric vidal @ 2020-02-02 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision; +Cc: Laurent Bercot

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 15:58:12 +0000
"Laurent Bercot" <ska-skaware@skarnet.org> wrote:

> >Do you mean they don't like editing files and creating symlinks? Do
> >they want a GUI interface to the service directory tree and the symlink
> >tree?
> 
> No, it's about service startup with s6-rc. They don't want to dive into
> the unpalatable blobs that are the set of systemd unit files or the set
> of openrc init scripts (and I can undertand their reluctance); and
> they don't want to make the effort of understanding the s6-rc syntax and
> creating s6-rc source directories (and that's something I'm sure you can
> relate with ;)). They want a service startup configuration format that's
> close to what they are used to, typically text files that are easy for
> a human to read.

Already done. A set of service portable and hackable easily is already operationnal.
One file to deal with all services format for s6 and s6-rc which can be written with 
every language that they prefer.

> Ideally, they'd want systemd unit files. Which is not gonna happen,
> because the format of these files maps the systemd architecture too
> closely and there are lots of things that would be expressed differently
> under a s6-linux-init/s6/s6-rc system; but a text-based configuration
> engine is totally doable, it's just a long project.

Done. INI format what's not invented by systemd. This format is easy to understand,
easy to write/read.

> They also want high-level commands like "service" or "openrc" to control
> the machine state without having to undertand the nitty-gritty of
> "s6-rc change", or the difference between "s6-rc -d change foo" and
> "s6-svc -d /run/service/foo". Which makes sense: can *you* tell me what
> this difference is? :)

Done, a set of command wrapper with consistent options between command with deal
with pure s6 services and s6-rc compiled database are already operationnal

> All of this will be solved by s6-frontend, but that's not something I
> can work on in the evenings.
> 
> 
> >What is UX?
> 
>   User experience.
> --
>   Laurent
> 

They can make test easily to see if s6 suit their needs even if your s6-frontend is
used in the future. 
And maybe after a few POC they can realize the advantage of s6 and finance you correctly to allow you 
of make rapid progress on the s6 development and s6-frontend

-- 
eric vidal <eric@obarun.org>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-03  9:40     ` fungal-net
  2020-02-03 16:42       ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03 19:28     ` mobinmob
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: fungal-net @ 2020-02-03  9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

Steve Litt:
> On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
> fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
> 
>> Void is also
>> very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
>> many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown by
>> arch daily.
> 
> Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
> and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
> s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
> Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both, to
> a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.

All s6 related packages are available on the repository (I believe all
current).  I think this work begun and was carried out by Duncaen (a
void main member) and he didn't give up, he just realized I think that
it would take fundamental void changes to incorporate it as an official
alternative.
Mobinmob stepped in and brought 66 and libs into void and is maintaining
them (currently 1 version behind obarun).  The official documentation
for 66 is https://web.obarun.org/software as well as
https://wiki.obarun.org/ and due to cross-distribution rules and
requests Eric caved into the pressure and provides both html and man
pages in the 66 pkg and tools.
What is missing from void are the ready made service files that are
available to copy/paste from https://framagit.org/pkg/observice
and place them into  /usr/share/66/service (instead of obarun's
/usr/lib/66/service).  The most important is the boot bundle enabled in
the boot tree.
https://web.obarun.org/software/66/frontend.html  --> Prototype template
of a service file.  Use only the fields that pertain to your service

> It seems trivial to me to deploy s6 stage 2 and migrate all my runit
> stage2 to s6 stage 2. However, migrating stage 1 sounds to me like an
> Einsteinian task. Runit's stage 1 repeatedly loops through .d
> directories in what I find to be an unobvious way.

Although I love riding my single speed 80s Bridgestone around the
neighborhood, on a long day's ride I prefer my disk braked 27s touring
contraption.  It makes life easier and the ride pleasant.  "Weight is
about the same".  I don't expect others to understand here, but you do.
It is a comparison between runit and s6/66.

> It seems to me that Void is getting more popular every day, and Void
> could serve as a Rosetta Stone between runit and s6. I'd appreciate any
> documentation you have or will write in the future concerning your use
> of s6* on Void.

I think void is at the verge of make or break.  What it needs is not
software but formal organization.  A group of friends can be very
effective till a crisis of friendship erupts.  When you work on a Ford
type assembly line what you do between whistles/horns is formal
organization, what noses you break in the break time are irrelevant or
with who you choose to get drunk between shifts.  When the horn blows
again you better be sober at your station, if you have any respect for
the work that you do yourself.  The tower of Babel is not around to
admire.  Formal organization does not imply a hierarchy, there have been
other ways.

> Thanks,
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive

To quickly answer your question, before mobinmob steps into the plate, I
would recommend this https://wiki.obarun.org/doku.php?id=66intro before
anything else.  What applies there it worked for 7-8 distributions it
was tried on.  Runit could be present, there are no conflicts, I choose
to remove it but runit-void better stay there, so it has to be force
separated.  I believe a solution where s6-void would conflict runit-void
would help, so what is needed on one is present on the other, but a mix
of the two that you are proposing should also be considered.  On artix
they force this separation to make the shift between three systems quick
and easy for all UX levels. :)

gus



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
  2020-02-02 14:38     ` Project funding: was " Steve Litt
  2020-02-02 14:42     ` Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-03 10:36     ` fungal-net
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: fungal-net @ 2020-02-03 10:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

Laurent Bercot:
>> I'd like to know what is your view and feeling of this expanding base,
>> what does it mean to you, and whether you see an influence of the
>> project by the growing popularity.  If I can interpret this announcement
>> correctly you seem already to be reacting to the Debian s6 incorporation
>> fiasco more than the projects who have treated s6 with greater respect.
> 
>  I don't quite understand what you mean.
>  I love that the s6 base is expanding, I really appreciate that we have
>  a community around it, and I've always been committed to supporting it.

I mean ...  (why is this Arlo Guthrie kind of voice coming into my head,
I mean ....), I think constructive criticism (public) of 66 is over due,
being the piece of software that can make someone from UX0 (windows XP)
switch to linux/s6 in an hour and not get lost.  It was Dec2018 I first
tried it, and that was late beta testing.  It is 2020 now.  What 66 does
with a short command it may take someone months to recreate with runit.

>  I keep repeating that I'm always willing to help people who are trying
> to integrate s6 in their projects; it just so happens that, for many
> excellent reasons, I don't get many requests. But when people reach out
> to me, I try to make good on the promise: for instance, making
> s6-linux-init sysvinit-compatible was a request from Adélie Linux; it
> took about two weeks of vacation time and a few week-ends; 100% worth,
> because that's what made it possible to have s6 as init in Adélie, which
> I'm very happy with and grateful to the whole Adélie community for.

Compiling and installing very very commonly used software in Adélie is
for a very limited UX spectrum.  Some of us are at an age where we don't
have that much time to wait for Adélie to mature... Not Adélie's
problem, I know.

>  The big pain point for further s6 integration in distros, as _every
> single one_ of those I contacted told me, is the user interface, and that
> UX return is basically driving my career. It is a big project that will
> need a lot of focused, uninterrupted time, so I'm currently trying to
> max out my earnings over 3 years so I'm able to take a whole year off to
> work on that project.

Even if contra-IBM hired you and paid you 6 figures to do "all" of it
for "all" UX levels, I think you would need a team to be able to keep up
with "all" of it.  It would be very inefficient use of your paid time to
waste three days to figure out what "plasma" needs today, it didn't need
yesterday, in order to work.  Unless you are planning your own
skar-desktop for the next 5 years.  3+1 = 5 ... why do those 5year
projects remind me of something :)

>  The Debian thing is a minor annoyance; it took two week-ends and a couple
> evenings to address it. You see me address minor annoyances more than The
> Big Request because it's all I have time and energy for while working on
> an outside contract. Maintenance things, tweaks around the edges, light
> QoL adjustments, and community support on IRC; no big developments.

At a quarter thousandth of UX it took me 10' to move execline to another
directory, but I don't love debian any more today than I did 3 years ago
when my wheezy finally terminally broke.

>  So, in that context, I don't understand your point; could you clarify?

Exactly what you said, you can spend 3 weekends and some dark mornings
to always be fixing what Debian devs will mess up in 23" and will not
have to respond to your inquiries.  Portability to Apple and android
should not be an issue for s6.  **F*** them!  I'll hold the oil lamp so
you don't miss!  If you get rich putting IBM out of business I would be
the happiest homeless bicyclist out there.

>  On a related note, it should now be obvious that the main obstacle to
> further s6 growth is the lack of time I can spend on it, and that comes
> directly from the need to self-fund. As a consequence (and I'm addressing
> the whole community here), if you like s6 - or other projects of mine -
> and want to see it become more widely adopted, the best thing you can do
> is find me sponsors! Long-term sponsoring would allow me to work on these
> projects full-time, and *then* they would take off.

 “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

>  Laurent

Stop being reasonable, you are scaring me!  With the little I know,
always learning and catching up, the power that hides between you and
Eric is enough to stop the open/free software industry on its feet and
turn it around towards a healthier direction.  Not in 5, not in 4 years,
but by the end of Spring 2020.  Then you can let me mediate how much you
and Eric, and under what terms, are you willing to accept an exclusive
interview by Distrowatch.  Your turn to hold the lamp!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-03  9:40     ` fungal-net
@ 2020-02-03 16:42       ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03 20:17         ` eric vidal
  2020-02-03 21:22         ` fungal-net
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Steve Litt @ 2020-02-03 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 11:40:07 +0200
fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:

> Steve Litt:
> > On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
> > fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
> >   
> >> Void is also
> >> very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
> >> many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown
> >> by arch daily.  
> > 
> > Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
> > and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
> > s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
> > Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both,
> > to a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.  
> 
> All s6 related packages are available on the repository (I believe all
> current).  I think this work begun and was carried out by Duncaen (a
> void main member) and he didn't give up, he just realized I think that
> it would take fundamental void changes to incorporate it as an
> official alternative.
> Mobinmob stepped in and brought 66 and libs into void and is
> maintaining them (currently 1 version behind obarun).  The official
> documentation for 66 is https://web.obarun.org/software as well as
> https://wiki.obarun.org/ and due to cross-distribution rules and
> requests Eric caved into the pressure and provides both html and man
> pages in the 66 pkg and tools.
> What is missing from void are the ready made service files that are
> available to copy/paste from https://framagit.org/pkg/observice
> and place them into  /usr/share/66/service (instead of obarun's
> /usr/lib/66/service).  The most important is the boot bundle enabled
> in the boot tree.
> https://web.obarun.org/software/66/frontend.html  --> Prototype
> template of a service file.  Use only the fields that pertain to your
> service

If I read between the lines, it sounds like you're saying the
best way to learn s6 is to install and run Obarun. I have a spare
machine on which I could do that.

Do you think the best and easiest way of learning s6 and the best way
to use s6 is to install Obarun?

Thanks,
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03  9:40     ` fungal-net
@ 2020-02-03 19:28     ` mobinmob
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: mobinmob @ 2020-02-03 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steve Litt; +Cc: supervision


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3532 bytes --]



Στις Κυρ, Φεβ 2, 2020 at 09:07, ο/η Steve Litt 
<slitt@troubleshooters.com> έγραψε:
> On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
> fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org <mailto:fungalnet@obarun.org>> wrote:
> 
>>  Void is also
>>  very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
>>  many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown 
>> by
>>  arch daily.
> 
> Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
> and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
> s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
> Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both, to
> a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.

I am the maintainer of 66/66-tools and oblibs templates/packages in 
voidlinux.
The 66/s6/s6-rc packages contain only what is provided by the upstream 
projects
or compiled with the projects build systems.
The scripts for runit stage 1 and some relevant utilities are developed 
in the void-runit gh
repo [1] and packaged in the runit-void package [2].
Currently there is no package that does the same for 66. I plan to 
build one
once I have enough time for testing. I will accomplish this by 
modifying the
boot-66serv [3] project already used by  obarun. I am going to create 
both
a '66-void' package that will be rougly analogous  to the runit-void one
and a base-system-66 package that will replace base-system. I plan to 
use
the same basic configuration file (/etc/rc.conf) and follow existing 
(and mostly
unwritten/assumed) void policies regarding the basic system 
functionality.
Switching from one init system to the other should require no more than 
installing
the new base system and doing basic configuration (once).

> 
> It seems trivial to me to deploy s6 stage 2 and migrate all my runit
> stage2 to s6 stage 2. However, migrating stage 1 sounds to me like an
> Einsteinian task. Runit's stage 1 repeatedly loops through .d
> directories in what I find to be an unobvious way.

boot-66serv works fine with void [4]-[5], but I want to make (and test) 
certain
changes in order to package it properly. You will need 66 and 66-tools 
packages
installed.
That being said, 66 is not just s6-rc and s6. It uses an ini-based 
format
for services [6] and has some simple but powerfull utilities. It 
organises services
in trees [7] - obarun has (ootb) a boot tree (provided by boot-66serv) 
and a root
tree populated by service frontend files packaged seperately.

> 
> It seems to me that Void is getting more popular every day, and Void
> could serve as a Rosetta Stone between runit and s6. I'd appreciate 
> any
> documentation you have or will write in the future concerning your use
> of s6* on Void.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> <http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive>
> 
___________________________________________________________________
[1] https://github.com/void-linux/void-runit
[2] 
https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/blob/a71b0a458be6ae5d095dc94aa4f2983acc0796db/srcpkgs/runit-void/template
[3] https://framagit.org/Obarun/boot-66serv
[4] https://forum.obarun.org/viewtopic.php?id=957
[5] 
https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/cqck5d/change_runit_to_s6_is_possible/f75neth/
[6] https://web.obarun.org/software/66/frontend.html
[7] https://web.obarun.org/software/66/66-tree.html




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-03 16:42       ` Steve Litt
@ 2020-02-03 20:17         ` eric vidal
  2020-02-03 21:22         ` fungal-net
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: eric vidal @ 2020-02-03 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision

On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 11:42:57 -0500
Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 11:40:07 +0200
> fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
> 
> > Steve Litt:
> > > On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
> > > fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
> > >   
> > >> Void is also
> > >> very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
> > >> many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown
> > >> by arch daily.  
> > > 
> > > Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
> > > and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
> > > s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
> > > Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both,
> > > to a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.  
> > 
> > All s6 related packages are available on the repository (I believe all
> > current).  I think this work begun and was carried out by Duncaen (a
> > void main member) and he didn't give up, he just realized I think that
> > it would take fundamental void changes to incorporate it as an
> > official alternative.
> > Mobinmob stepped in and brought 66 and libs into void and is
> > maintaining them (currently 1 version behind obarun).  The official
> > documentation for 66 is https://web.obarun.org/software as well as
> > https://wiki.obarun.org/ and due to cross-distribution rules and
> > requests Eric caved into the pressure and provides both html and man
> > pages in the 66 pkg and tools.
> > What is missing from void are the ready made service files that are
> > available to copy/paste from https://framagit.org/pkg/observice
> > and place them into  /usr/share/66/service (instead of obarun's
> > /usr/lib/66/service).  The most important is the boot bundle enabled
> > in the boot tree.
> > https://web.obarun.org/software/66/frontend.html  --> Prototype
> > template of a service file.  Use only the fields that pertain to your
> > service
> 
> If I read between the lines, it sounds like you're saying the
> best way to learn s6 is to install and run Obarun. I have a spare
> machine on which I could do that.
> 
> Do you think the best and easiest way of learning s6 and the best way
> to use s6 is to install Obarun?

Surely not, a various wrapper for s6/s6-rc program exist e.g https://gitea.com/CasperVector/slew.
Also, some good wiki about s6/s6-rc exist e.g. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/S6.
Furthermore, you can create your own wrapper to suit your exact needs.

Actually, 66 works out of the box on many distros, debian spin included like Antix or Devuan.
The main advantage of Obarun is that it provide all packages skalibs/execline/s6/s6-rc/.../66 
without the needs to change anything to properly works. 66 works on mechanisms, not on policies and highly
configurable at compile time.

As being said, you can simply download an ISO(maybe the minimal one, no X session) from Obarun web site and
test directly on the ISO the 66 tools. You can use docker too. A docker image is provide with 66 into it.



> Thanks,
>  
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive


-- 
eric vidal <eric@obarun.org>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: State of skarnet.org projects
  2020-02-03 16:42       ` Steve Litt
  2020-02-03 20:17         ` eric vidal
@ 2020-02-03 21:22         ` fungal-net
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: fungal-net @ 2020-02-03 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: supervision



Steve Litt:
> On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 11:40:07 +0200
> fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
> 
>> Steve Litt:
>>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:34:05 +0200
>>> fungal-net <fungalnet@obarun.org> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Void is also
>>>> very close, I for one use it with s6 and 66 for a while now and in
>>>> many ways being more carefree than obarun having fast balls thrown
>>>> by arch daily.  
>>>
>>> Have you, or are you going to, write documentation on how to install
>>> and maintain s6 (and presumably s6-rc) on Void? Are you using Void's
>>> s6* packages, or do you compile the stuff yourself? If you install
>>> Void's s6* packages, does that remove runit? I'd like to have both,
>>> to a/b them against each other and to more quickly learn s6*.  
>>
>> All s6 related packages are available on the repository (I believe all
>> current).  I think this work begun and was carried out by Duncaen (a
>> void main member) and he didn't give up, he just realized I think that
>> it would take fundamental void changes to incorporate it as an
>> official alternative.
>> Mobinmob stepped in and brought 66 and libs into void and is
>> maintaining them (currently 1 version behind obarun).  The official
>> documentation for 66 is https://web.obarun.org/software as well as
>> https://wiki.obarun.org/ and due to cross-distribution rules and
>> requests Eric caved into the pressure and provides both html and man
>> pages in the 66 pkg and tools.
>> What is missing from void are the ready made service files that are
>> available to copy/paste from https://framagit.org/pkg/observice
>> and place them into  /usr/share/66/service (instead of obarun's
>> /usr/lib/66/service).  The most important is the boot bundle enabled
>> in the boot tree.
>> https://web.obarun.org/software/66/frontend.html  --> Prototype
>> template of a service file.  Use only the fields that pertain to your
>> service
> 
> If I read between the lines, it sounds like you're saying the
> best way to learn s6 is to install and run Obarun. I have a spare
> machine on which I could do that.

No, I didn't mean to convey such message, it is best to try both s6 and
66 in the distro you are most familiar with.  Here is an example of
trying it on antiX http://sysdfree.wordpress.com/291

As I see mobinmob's response, he is being modest and very reserved.
Void works great with s6/66.  On my experience only ntpd service needed
a small alteration to work out of the box from obarun to void due to the
ntp/openntp difference.  Running resources on the same installation were
nearly identical.  I can't justify and quantify it but it feels the
system became more responsive (quicker).

> Do you think the best and easiest way of learning s6 and the best way
> to use s6 is to install Obarun?

If you can clone your void installation on the same system, different
partition and boot it, do the switch there so you have a better base to
compare with.  If you make the transformation through chroot you will
not have to worry about poweroff/reboot failing, or save runit's reboot
temporarily for that one time.
Pay attention to how void splits some packages into elements so there
may be pkg-n and pkg-n-dev that makes the whole.  This applies to both
s6 and 66.
Feel free to send me any questions on the test.

> Thanks,
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> February 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-02-02  9:34 State of skarnet.org projects Laurent Bercot
2020-02-02 10:34 ` fungal-net
2020-02-02 14:07   ` Steve Litt
2020-02-03  9:40     ` fungal-net
2020-02-03 16:42       ` Steve Litt
2020-02-03 20:17         ` eric vidal
2020-02-03 21:22         ` fungal-net
2020-02-03 19:28     ` mobinmob
2020-02-02 14:22   ` Laurent Bercot
2020-02-02 14:38     ` Project funding: was " Steve Litt
2020-02-02 15:37       ` Laurent Bercot
2020-02-02 14:42     ` Steve Litt
     [not found]       ` <20200202094227.2084ed54-s1DAj2AW31EXSucajVqtjwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2020-02-02 15:58         ` Laurent Bercot
2020-02-02 21:24           ` eric vidal
2020-02-03 10:36     ` fungal-net

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