* 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
@ 2000-06-16 20:12 Michael Sokolov
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From: Michael Sokolov @ 2000-06-16 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
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E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616161600.262000b2 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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>It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
>distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
>1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
>4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
>4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
>files.
That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html
Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.
Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History
Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but
I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what
was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?)
Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo
distributions kicking around?
Tim.
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006162041.AA01624 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD
1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.
Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743 at rek.tjls.com>
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
>
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
>
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
>
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
[... and more spewage ...]
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:02:56 -0700
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
>
> Thor
I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.
Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and
are downright rude and insulting.
Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.
Regards,
Scott G. Taylor
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.
Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien at NUXI.com> writes:
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
>
> I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."
You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743 at rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm"
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:
As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.
I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.
For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:
In article by Joe Bloe:
> I think turtles are ugly.
I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
with the mailing list.
I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.
Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!
Thank you,
Warren
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616202913.262000b0 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Yesterday I asked:
>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Subject: Re: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289 at home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am"
To: robport at home.com (Robert Porter)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
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tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).
Send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:
unsubscribe tuhs
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
subscribe tuhs-digest
Cheers!
Warren
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
and distribution.
There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
of 1991).
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545 at rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com
References: <20000616174408.A20743 at rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
>
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating.
I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.
Thor
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
--
-- David (obrien at NUXI.com)
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
To: obrien at NUXI.com
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin@ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <20000616174408.A20743 at rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
<20000616232004.A4545 at rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>
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In message <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien at NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution". This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
>
> During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
> brought up the subject of the popularity of the
> freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
> possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
> BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
> large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
> could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
> utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
> Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>
> Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
> development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
> from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
> only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
> Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
> rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
> trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
> Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
> such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
> the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
> all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
> Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
> hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
> our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
> over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
> originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
From: Robin Birch <robin@ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>
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In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
> I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>>
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>>
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
have some effects on the archive structure.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006171504.AA02620 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:
> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
> out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
> code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
> and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]
It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.
If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.
--
Soren
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From: "Mike Allison" <mallison@konnections.com>
To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
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I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
to me.
I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.
Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.
Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
-Mike
Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
past.
K.S.
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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kshuff <kshuff at fast.net> wrote:
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
Then why are you on this list?
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code.
--
-- David (obrien at NUXI.com)
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:
> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.
Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.
> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]
Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.
Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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