* [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
@ 2001-04-19 20:51 Edward Brocklesby
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Edward Brocklesby @ 2001-04-19 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi,
I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example
MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error:
[ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o
-Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z
../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a
-Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
[ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >
is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?
-larne-
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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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Hi -
> From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
> I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example
> MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error:
It has been eons and eons since I attempted MH and I can't remember
if I gave up or finally got something to work (shows how long its
been ;)).
> [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o
> -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z
> ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a
> -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
> ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
> [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >
Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the
message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during
the debugging of 'ld' when the long symbol names (the "string table"
aka 4.3BSD a.out format) capability was being developed.
That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date.
The answer to the 'Maximum PDP-11 executable size?' question is fairly
length and a bit involved ;). Assuming split I/D:
Short answer: 120KB to 904KB
Long answer:
without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data
segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program. In practice if a
program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and
the program may link but it won't run ;(
For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top
8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently:
There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero
length/empty overlays between populated overlays).
BASE OVERLAYSIZE TOTALTEXT
8KB 56KB * 15 840KB
16KB 48KB * 15 736KB
24KB 40KB * 15 624KB
32KB 32KB * 15 512KB
40KB 24KB * 15 400KB
48KB 16KB * 15 288KB
56KB 8KB * 15 176KB
In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases,
and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe
swapping.
Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the
base=48KB or base=56KB layout. I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB
base segment.
The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an
overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which
again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow.
If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it
and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that
way.
You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't
believe it's "required" though.
-Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o
> is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?
Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to
see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing
16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was
fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound.
What version of 2.11 (should be in the first couple lines of /VERSION)
are you using? Sure feels like 'ld' is old and having problems that
were fixed later on.
Steven Schultz
sms at to.gd-es.com
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From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@leguin.org.uk>
Organization: Leguin Network Services
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:19 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001 12:47 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z
> > forw.o -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z
> > distsbr.o -Z ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z
> > ../zotnet/libzot.a -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
> > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
> > [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >
>
> Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the
> message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during
That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem..
> That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date.
/VERSION says:
Current Patch Level: 400
Date: January 24, 1998
That's what was on the PUPS FTP site..
> without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data
> segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program. In practice if a
> program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and
> the program may link but it won't run ;(
>
> For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top
> 8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently:
>
> There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero
> length/empty overlays between populated overlays).
>
> BASE OVERLAYSIZE TOTALTEXT
> 8KB 56KB * 15 840KB
> 16KB 48KB * 15 736KB
> 24KB 40KB * 15 624KB
> 32KB 32KB * 15 512KB
> 40KB 24KB * 15 400KB
> 48KB 16KB * 15 288KB
> 56KB 8KB * 15 176KB
>
> In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases,
> and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe
> swapping.
>
> Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the
> base=48KB or base=56KB layout. I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB
> base segment.
hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in
the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the
right size?
> The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an
> overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which
> again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow.
possibly, i will look on the 2BSD patch archives now..
> If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it
> and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that
> way.
text data bss dec hex
27648 35860 32412 95920 176b0 total text: 83072
overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096
this particular link gave the error:
ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0)
the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?
> You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't
> believe it's "required" though.
>
> -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o
nope.. this doesn't seem to help
> > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?
>
> Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to
> see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing
> 16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was
> fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound.
Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here..
-rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 127074 Apr 9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a
-rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 102126 Apr 9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a
maybe that's the problem..
-larne-
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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Hi -
> > message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during
>
> That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem..
Ok - whew, for a minute there I thought some of my debug code had
leaked to the world ;) That's the style of debug message I use <g>
> /VERSION says:
> Current Patch Level: 400
> Date: January 24, 1998
Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in
midstream but haven't had time to finish it).
> That's what was on the PUPS FTP site..
Ah. Much becomes clear now. That indeed was the version at one time.
A year or so ago I and Warren coordinated an update to the 2.11 in PUPS
The current PUPS version is 431 (only 3 updates since then - I've
slowed down a lot over the last couple years).
> hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in
You don't. At least not directly. Anything outside an overlay
goes into the base segment. Thus anything before the first -Z goes
into the base, and anything after the -Y goes into the base.
> the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the
> right size?
That's basically the way to do it. You can do "size" on the .o files
first to get an idea what you want to put where but after that tuning
the overlays to fit is a bit of an art.
> text data bss dec hex
> 27648 35860 32412 95920 176b0 total text: 83072
> overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096
the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the
56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process. Looks
like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space.
You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at
least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays
of 24KB or 16KB.
THe data space problem means you're going to have to go and lower
a lot of the buffer size limits. Remember: even if you do get
the dataspace down to where the linker doesn't complain the program
will almost certainly try to malloc() memory. Thus the smaller the
data+bss the better - and be prepared for malloc() failures
One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common
pool. The other thing that can be done is create a strings file
and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into
an external file. Examples of doing this type of thing can be found
in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another
and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr' and
'kermit5.sr' files on the system).
In fact 'kermit' is a good example of squishing a monster program into
a small machine. Check out /usr/src/new/kermit5.188
> ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0)
>
> the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?
Hmmm, could be.
> Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here..
> -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 127074 Apr 9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a
> -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 102126 Apr 9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a
>
> maybe that's the problem..
The size of the .a doesn't accurately reflect the code+text+bss
For one thing 'bss' takes up no room at all in an archive. Don't
forget that symbol tables and relocation information (as well as
'ar' book keeping info) is present. You can't rely on "ls -l"
to say very much about an object file - only "size" can do that.
"size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
are.
Steven Schultz
sms at to.gd-es.com
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From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@leguin.org.uk>
Organization: Leguin Network Services
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:58 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001 3:42 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the
> 56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process. Looks
> like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space.
>
> You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at
> least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays
> of 24KB or 16KB.
The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data +
24K bss (77444 total). Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations
i can think of, to no avail..
> One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
> collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common
> pool. The other thing that can be done is create a strings file
> and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into
> an external file. Examples of doing this type of thing can be found
> in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another
> and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr' and
> 'kermit5.sr' files on the system).
hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working.
> > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal =
> > 0)
> >
> > the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?
>
> Hmmm, could be.
Could be i used the wrong printf format also..
> "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
> are.
unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries.
-larne-
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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200104200449.f3K4nxv24294 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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> From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
> The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data +
> 24K bss (77444 total). Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations
> i can think of, to no avail..
I think this would be a very good time to point out that 'data' is
NOT overlaid, only the text is overlaid. There is but 1 data segment
and all data+bss goes into it.
Text overlays work because there's a very careful dance done by the
assembler and linker. Functions use a 'thunk' (intermediate
transfer vector) - thus when a program calls foo() it is really
calling something like ~foo(). That thunk performs part of the
function prolog and then checks if the overlay mapping needs to changeoa and if so makes a syscall to have the kernel twiddle the MMU. Then
the thunk calls foo+4 (skipping the part of the function prolog that
has already been done). Very elegant but completely unapplicable
to data references (think on it - how is each and every pointer
dereference to be checked to see if that data is mapped in?).
In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract
all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and
pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely.
> > One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
>
> hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working.
Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
work.
Since MH was written with a large address space in mind it will likely
be necessary to go thru the code and find the "#define BUFSIZE 32000"
or whatever and scale things back. The odds are good that many
buffers are declared to be large just because it didn't matter on
a big address space machine. That's what had to be done for 'vi',
'sendmail', 'kermit', etc.
> > "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
> > are.
>
> unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries.
Oh. Darn, I got my systems mixed up. On some systems 'size' will
work on .a files - something to put on the TODO pile (shouldn't be
too hard since 'nm' works with .a files).
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@leguin.org.uk>
Organization: Leguin Network Services
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:25 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001 5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract
> all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and
> pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely.
hmm.. i might have a look at doing this after i get xstr working.
> Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
> actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
> work.
36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :>
I'm currently converting libmh.a to use xstr, but I've come across a
problem.. given the definition
static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = "";
xstr generates the code
static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = (&xstr[0]);
which the C compiler refuses to compile. Any way around this?
-larne-
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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)
From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig@Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
Message-Id: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954 at RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
To: helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> > If the following README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can
> > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie?
> >
> > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation.
> > Anyone interested?
>
>
> Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be
> placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it
> into the archive?
I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories
is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to.
Wolfgang
>
> Regards -- Markus
>
> >
> > Wolfgang
> >
> > First README:
> > UNIX V6 on the Supnik simulator:
> > --------------------------------
> > This directory contains tape files for the Supnik simulator and
> > accompaning README files, which I produced when preparing an OS
[...]
> > Second README:
> > This directory contains some documentation as found on the UNIX V6
> > Distribution tape. The files were converted to postscript with
> > groff and the usage of the V6 ms-macro package. (See the print
> > shell script)
[...]
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From: Markus E Leypold <leypold@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE
Cc: helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954 at RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
(message from Wolfgang Helbig on Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200
(CEST))
Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator
References: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954 at RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
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> Delivered-To: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
> Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> > > If the following README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can
> > > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie?
> > >
> > > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation.
> > > Anyone interested?
> >
> >
> > Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be
> > placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it
> > into the archive?
>
> I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories
> is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to.
Well -- send a mail to warren k tomey (wkt at .... -- you'll find him in
the mailing list). He has been building the archive and might tell
you, how to transfer the files. Since PUPS-archive has an incoming
directory, I think, it might be, that ftp-'put' to incoming will
work. Warren or some other archive maintainer can pick it from there,
and place it in the proper directories.
Ask Warren. He is the one who should know.
Regards -- Markus
PS: Somehow I know your name. You haven't written a book by chance?
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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@update.uu.se>
To: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
In-Reply-To: <01042006262506.00527 at klamath.leguin.org.uk>
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On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Edward Brocklesby wrote:
> On Friday 20 April 2001 5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
> > actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
> > work.
>
> 36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :>
Actually, the PDP-10 have variable byte size. Anything from 1 to 36
bits. Lazy people went with 9 bit bytes, while size-aware people used 7
bit bytes. And then you have SIXBIT...
/Department for worthless knowledge. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
References: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361 at moe.2bsd.com>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih@Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:23:51 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT)"
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"Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> > Current Patch Level: 400
> > Date: January 24, 1998
>
> Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in
> midstream but haven't had time to finish it).
You mean 435/436: patch 435 was released on February 7th, 2001. :-)
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
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