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From: "Åke Nordin" <ake.nordin@netia.se>
To: tuhs@tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 02:54:05 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <022282cf-1930-4344-bba8-2b0f3202a6d7@netia.se> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1841E020-8BDD-4997-A319-2FFEE75F84A5@pobox.com>

On 2024-06-16 23:56, David Arnold wrote:
>> On 15 Jun 2024, at 00:18, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>>
>> It's my understanding that systemd as a service lifecycle manager is starting to take on some aspects of what cluster service managers used to do.
> I think it goes beyond this, and that systemd is just a convenient focus point for folks to push back against a wider set of changes.

As an example of where I believe evolution is headed, I'd like to
talk about the Elephant in the Room.

Android.

It has a Linux, and thus Unix, heritage. The parts of it that still
depends on libc enjoys the quality of OpenBSD code, so it is blessed
by some unixy simplicity. Yet regular users are so far removed from
anything unix-like that it might as well be Multivac or the Mima.

That it still has a file manager of sorts that knows the typical
locations of downloads or photos is one of the last concessions
to us "I know it's a computer, let me use it as one" types.
By default, its apps are sandboxed and isolated in their own hives
with their code (main(), library dependencies, media resources)
and data presumably sealed off from the rest of the file system.
Every code component is of course duplicated in every app. Each
new version of Android seems to remove yet another aspect of its
Unix roots.

It didn't start there, though. Once upon a time, chroot() was
a popular way to reduce attack surface area in Linux as well as
elsewhere. You had to carefully populate it with just the
dependencies that were needed. Containers followed, automating
dependency provisioning. Android and its app ecosystem  is just
a logical continuation of that evolution.

Ubuntu has promoted "snaps," a kind of containerized applications
that pretty much walks and quacks just like an Android app.
Maybe it'sjust me being stupid trying to make things work with
e.g. a snap-based version of synergy for keyboard and mouse
sharing, but to me it seems that they typically don't see much
of your file system, not to talk about any comprehensive view
of your /dev.

Quite a few distros seems to be headed that way. I'm probably
both deluded as well as occluded in my reasoning, but I strongly
suspect that the last generation of actively interested computer
users where a majority understood processor memory models, I/O
and interrupts is now largely promoted out of harms way.
"Add another layer of abstractions so we don't need to care
about such bullshit" seems to be the new call to arms.

That dbus, systemd and Wayland isn't worse than they are is frankly
an amazing success given the circumstances they were born under.

-- 
Åke Nordin <ake.nordin@netia.se>, resident Net/Lunix/telecom geek.
Netia Data AB, Stockholm SWEDEN *46#7O466OI99#


  parent reply	other threads:[~2024-06-17  0:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 174+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-06-13 14:56 [TUHS] Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2024-06-13 15:33 ` [TUHS] " Dan Cross
2024-06-13 15:35 ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' ??? " Larry McVoy
2024-06-13 15:41   ` Alan D. Salewski
2024-06-13 15:55   ` Steve Nickolas
2024-06-13 15:39 ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Clem Cole
2024-06-13 16:47   ` Arrigo Triulzi via TUHS
2024-06-13 18:39     ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-06-13 18:45       ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' ??? " Mychaela Falconia
2024-06-14  8:59         ` Ralph Corderoy
2024-06-13 18:54       ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Dan Cross
2024-06-12 19:29         ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' " Greg A. Woods
2024-06-13 20:03           ` Dan Cross
2024-06-13 17:07             ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-14 14:17             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2024-06-16  5:48               ` Alexis
2024-06-15  8:48                 ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-16 19:44                   ` Clem Cole
2024-06-17  0:10                     ` Peter Yardley
2024-06-17  0:29                       ` Clem Cole
2024-06-17  1:01                   ` Alexis
2024-06-17  1:21                     ` Warner Losh
2024-06-17  1:25                     ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-17  1:32                       ` Warner Losh
2024-06-17 19:21                       ` Stuff Received
2024-06-17 19:28                         ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-17 22:34                         ` Steve Nickolas
2024-06-16  7:57                           ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-17 23:44                             ` Warner Losh
2024-06-18  0:06                               ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-18 22:44                               ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-19  2:33                                 ` David Arnold
2024-06-18  1:52                             ` Steve Nickolas
2024-06-18  4:52                               ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-06-18 22:50                                 ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-18 23:03                                   ` Warner Losh
2024-06-18 23:27                                     ` ron minnich
2024-06-19  1:38                                     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2024-06-19  1:42                                       ` Warner Losh
2024-06-19 23:28                                         ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-20  5:01                                           ` Scot Jenkins via TUHS
2024-06-20  5:09                                             ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-20  5:18                                               ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-20 18:34                                             ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-20 18:41                                               ` Adam Thornton
2024-06-20 19:59                                                 ` Warner Losh
2024-06-20 20:12                                                   ` ron minnich
2024-06-20 20:22                                                     ` Adam Thornton
2024-06-20 20:29                                                     ` ron minnich
2024-06-21 15:46                                                     ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21 16:06                                                       ` Henry Bent
2024-06-21 16:24                                                         ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21 16:40                                                           ` Henry Bent
2024-06-21 16:52                                                             ` Warner Losh
2024-06-21 17:25                                                             ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21 17:31                                                             ` Phil Budne
2024-06-21 17:55                                                               ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-20 20:19                                                   ` Clem Cole
2024-06-20 20:34                                                   ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-20 21:00                                                     ` ron minnich
2024-06-20 21:53                                                       ` David Arnold
2024-06-20 22:00                                                         ` ron minnich
2024-06-20 22:11                                                           ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-20 22:35                                                       ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-21 13:57                                                       ` Stuff Received
2024-06-20 19:57                                               ` [TUHS] Version 256.1: Now slightly less likely to delete /home Jim Capp
2024-06-20  8:05                                           ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register Steve Nickolas
2024-06-19  2:38                                     ` David Arnold
2024-06-19 22:52                                     ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-19  0:08                                   ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-19  0:46                                     ` Nevin Liber
2024-06-19  1:00                                       ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-06-19  3:07                                       ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-19  3:14                                         ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-19  3:36                                           ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-19  6:50                                           ` arnold
2024-06-19 11:28                                             ` sjenkin
2024-06-19  9:00                                         ` Ralph Corderoy
2024-06-19 13:28                                       ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-19 14:44                                         ` Warner Losh
2024-06-19 14:53                                           ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-19 15:08                                             ` Warner Losh
2024-06-19 15:11                                             ` G. Branden Robinson
2024-06-19 15:16                                             ` ron minnich
2024-06-19 15:59                                         ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-06-19 22:48                                           ` Kevin Bowling
2024-06-20  5:14                                             ` David Arnold
2024-06-20  5:32                                               ` George Michaelson
2024-06-20  6:37                                                 ` Alexis
2024-06-20  7:07                                                   ` David Arnold
2024-06-20 21:07                                                   ` [TUHS] Building programs (Re: " Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-06-20 23:35                                                     ` [TUHS] " Alexis
2024-06-21  0:05                                                       ` Warner Losh
2024-06-21  0:34                                                         ` Alexis
2024-06-21  0:54                                                           ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-21  1:06                                                             ` G. Branden Robinson
2024-06-21  1:32                                                             ` Alexis
2024-06-21  1:43                                                               ` Warner Losh
2024-06-21 16:07                                                           ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21  0:35                                                       ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-06-21  1:15                                                         ` Alexis
2024-06-21  1:43                                                           ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-06-21 13:58                                                             ` Alan D. Salewski
2024-06-21  0:35                                                       ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-21  0:49                                                         ` Alexis
2024-06-21  1:22                                                           ` Greg A. Woods
2024-06-21  1:44                                                             ` Kevin Bowling
2024-06-21 15:57                                                       ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-22  0:04                                                         ` Alexis
2024-06-22 17:53                                                           ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-22 18:15                                                             ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-22 21:16                                                               ` David Arnold
2024-06-23  0:29                                                                 ` segaloco via TUHS
2024-06-23 18:50                                                                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-06-23 18:56                                                               ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-23 20:15                                                                 ` Stuff Received
2024-06-24 14:03                                                                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-06-24 14:33                                                                     ` Dan Cross
2024-06-24 15:17                                                                       ` Warner Losh
2024-06-24 15:23                                                                   ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21 15:41                               ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-21 15:38                           ` Chet Ramey via TUHS
2024-06-20 20:14                       ` Alexander Schreiber
2024-06-16  6:43                 ` Wesley Parish
2024-06-16 21:56               ` David Arnold
2024-06-16 23:34                 ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-16 23:46                   ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-17 21:40                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2024-06-17  0:54                 ` Åke Nordin [this message]
2024-06-18  5:55                 ` Alexis
2024-06-18  6:39                   ` Michael Kjörling
2024-06-13 19:37       ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Alan D. Salewski
2024-06-13 20:05         ` Clem Cole
2024-06-13 20:31           ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-06-13 20:06         ` A. P. Garcia
2024-06-13 20:26           ` Jim Capp
2024-06-13 21:35           ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' ??? " Larry McVoy
2024-06-14  0:27         ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Alexis
2024-06-14  0:59           ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' ??? " Larry McVoy
2024-06-14  1:11             ` Luther Johnson
2024-06-14  1:42             ` Alexis
2024-06-14  4:22               ` ron minnich
2024-06-14  6:54               ` Angel M Alganza
2024-06-14  7:04             ` Dave Horsfall
2024-06-14  7:33             ` arnold
2024-06-14  7:34             ` Andy Kosela
2024-06-14  7:44               ` Dave Horsfall
2024-06-14 11:31             ` Vincenzo Nicosia
2024-06-13 20:26     ` [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • " Dave Horsfall
2024-06-14 11:32       ` Michael Kjörling
2024-06-14 12:21         ` A. P. Garcia
2024-06-18 12:02           ` Arrigo Triulzi via TUHS
2024-06-23  0:13         ` Dave Horsfall
2024-06-23  1:47           ` Alexis
2024-06-23 19:00             ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-06-23 20:04               ` Alexander Schreiber
2024-06-24 13:50                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2024-06-24 14:21                   ` Dan Cross
2024-06-26  7:39                     ` Kevin Bowling
2024-06-24 15:03                   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2024-06-17  0:48 [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' " Noel Chiappa
2024-06-17  1:02 ` Clem Cole
2024-06-17  1:05 ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-17  3:56   ` ron minnich
2024-06-17  3:57     ` ron minnich
2024-06-17  5:41       ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-06-17  5:51         ` Bakul Shah via TUHS
2024-06-17 15:56           ` Clem Cole
2024-06-17 16:00             ` Clem Cole
2024-06-17 16:59               ` Charles H Sauer (he/him)
2024-06-17 16:43             ` Larry McVoy
2024-06-17 22:49         ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2024-06-20 16:45 Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2024-06-20 18:32 ` Kevin Bowling

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