From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F64821FF6 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2024 16:25:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF854379F; Wed, 2 Oct 2024 00:25:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B16DD4379E for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2024 00:25:07 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=makerlisp.com; s=s1-ionos; t=1727792706; x=1728397506; i=luther.johnson@makerlisp.com; bh=F9V0x2z5ZlLkYVgkH26gUtEyE9QWJMSIEus+cKm3XJU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=I4QX4PN5PUwiSlOwgk0WEf5yOOuJyVo82FSNXvk/OoolkIkNcS+QK0Fatbg57MXX 265J1P407i3XN9+CzSCzejMdiNZBijdrIBIWrA9vrBhTf4jH0iSSibedP1AZIwKJj auIaDyqYuFwmVwSFzjcyaH8BSQHTeRn8BRh8HTjJ76IhKymJEV8/BCOXJa4mAbi28 lTjCvENnfKWBXr5DCX98DRa7JnjuOOmY2ZhmK6MMdwnzxMF/cvcI0Uqs75iHD0+QA 1/CeOqzRVXagtpJx1uscZSP3OQOzyscefbJ3f+Hv6swPqtOT7oKJJ0h3CIKO2dOf9 d8Qj1DkxRY/pjn1ARg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 55c96926-9e95-11ee-ae09-1f7a4046a0f6 Received: from mlhivps ([74.50.126.128]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwsL0-1rpiEE2r4y-00rMTn for ; Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:25:06 +0200 Received: from [192.168.234.136] (unknown [172.56.209.101]) by mlhivps (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 063E5480078 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2024 14:25:05 +0000 (UTC) To: tuhs@tuhs.org References: <20240928165812.4uyturluj4dsuwef@illithid> <20240928180138.aygrwqdwrvq3n6xt@illithid> <202410011313.491DD4ac421643@freefriends.org> <20241001133231.GE13777@mcvoy.com> <202410011347.491DlAsJ423777@freefriends.org> <20241001140101.GG13777@mcvoy.com> From: Luther Johnson Message-ID: <024bd803-2852-c0d0-5f15-30ec65c45cb4@makerlisp.com> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 07:25:04 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20241001140101.GG13777@mcvoy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:z1e0hRLly33zt8b7Dgex9CE777UqKRjbvMPSYe8iP1wDQYSHm/G 9krKkIfqHKUwOW63U+WlzmxDSlwseX6H0FiFC2x7KA98Ef8EqZnILO+ddbgG/pWg3dK8mMt 8F8cdZhUM48GB8g0fLuLNby73KUcJAmUDqHQ9Zpd6fVdBmYZva+PHo95CdWvE9P/wRufx1R oSCesi2LgjYb8RvkzBHng== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:MizyaSBfaRM=;xH348JQunwU0mdgKiT/s1xQdx3/ FeP+c8WUlTEHXgUn5ErBNv/u9ejCeJF/E94FHQBlrI30qxBV5tr7+Bz241AavsSNOWGTv6cBA WgIk0NSnnyOw1Wg182vYkfbx2IH9FAxifPnm+LON1zPc843xcTtj8gEUq5EER6esX+p6WA8zy PvpR3zkS/UZLDiZ6UJ6PYvX+UbkX0unC0lAxuALvu1+Mo7amZfI0E1e1HfYbOoer75vbESoz4 Zjz7JsFkakjJQkWHyolSZrVKBOAux3lPAjescSuTRF4ZPJBBxmGDx/5YeujL0disThp+hqaiQ 0D3oioMsx5t0EfrIHHbFVDvfg2A2Q4bdp2rvaVgZbkpdNuOB6kn0D//cwnNeZZE9/jYIQegwq eEAKoMvAiDYgCBNZB/U4krUwPwzO5l09ENcp7CcBL0IPrmFq3+n+nGxLnw4sAQ+O/o6bMSsbB tp6ItvnqPX5Q7iYiJMEPd0bJIlMfu9Ocjwiu6BIBKb7iEcLoAIQ3S9J7LyVZXfNii4crT6u4F xiVkbqmR+k9liMB0oh8NdvhgArp8A/n22Fv1yMiZVxnKqkjqbKse5FLDB92IU+U5rJ1Fyhyt3 9umHvA+3+2/6RehAmUqEG5zLE5gWH56vqKS1xDn2QPdkmCAKt5I/rJy5KyXbkAeg6xPWeKLuI j1a+K69wGXRU6lL57PMyls43bJOiDG/JKk3+GsF9orvRgga+ph4heHlp+ZeZEJjauYuim+o5J CXvQTttD0DBH1Ma7mBxcfI5MnwqKyQ6Mw== Message-ID-Hash: FSEY76Y4AKBVFJD7T7SKNMD7HX6FTNCK X-Message-ID-Hash: FSEY76Y4AKBVFJD7T7SKNMD7HX6FTNCK X-MailFrom: luther.johnson@makerlisp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Minimum Array Sizes in 16 bit C (was Maximum) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: I think because the of the orders of magnitude increase in the demand for programmers, we now have a very large number of programmers with little or no math and science (and computer science doesn't count in the point I'm trying to make here, if that's your only science, you're not going to have the models in your head from other disciplines to give you useful analogs) background, and that's a big change from 40 years ago. So that has had an effect on who is programming, how they think about it, and how languages have been marketed to that programming audience. IMH= O. On 10/01/2024 07:01 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Tue, Oct 01, 2024 at 07:47:10AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >> Larry McVoy wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Oct 01, 2024 at 07:13:04AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >>>> Would the word have been better off if Ada had caught on everywhere? >>>> Probably. When I was in grad school studying language design, circa = 1982, >>>> it was expected to do so. But the language was VERY challenging for >>>> compiler writers. >>> Huh. Rob Netzer and I, as grad students, took cs701 and cs702 at UW M= adison. >>> It was the compilers course (701) and the really hard compilers course= (702) >>> at the time. The first course was to write a compiler for a subset of= Ada >>> and the second on increased the subset to be almost complete. >>> >>> We were supposed to do it on an IBM mainframe because the professor ha= d his >>> own version of lex/yacc there. Rob had a 3b1 and asked if we could do= it >>> there if he rewrote the parser stuff. Prof said sure. >>> >>> In one semester we had a compiler, no optimizer and not much in the >>> way of graceful error handling, but it compiled stuff that ran. We di= d >>> all of Ada other than late binding of variables (I think that was Ada'= s >>> templates) and threads and probably some other stuff I don't remember. >> Did you do generics? That and the run time, which had some real-time >> bits to it (*IIRC*, it's been a long time), as well as the cross >> object code type checking, would have been real bears. > None of those ring a bell so > >> Like many things, the first 90% is easy, the second 90% is hard. :-) > I guess we did the easy stuff :-( > >>> I don't consider myself to be that good of a programmer, I can point t= o >>> dozens of people my age that can run circles around me and I'm sure th= ere >>> are many more. >> You are undoubtedly better than you give yourself credit for, even >> if there were people who could run circles around you. I learned >> a long time ago, that no matter how good you are, there's always >> someone better than you at something. I decided long ago to not >> try to compete with Superman. > Funny, I've come to the same conclusion, both in programming and my > retirement hobby. There is always someone way better than me, but > you are correct, that doesn't mean I'm awful. Just have more to > learn. > > A buddy pointed out that I was probably better than 80% of the people > leaving the dock, it's just I fish with a guy who is better than pretty > much everyone. > >>> But apparently the bar is pretty low these days and I agree, that's sa= d. >> And it makes it much less fun to be out in the working world. :-( > As a guy in his 2nd retirement (1st didn't stick) I can tell you I am > so happy not having to deal with work stuff. My buddies who are still > working tell me stories I find difficult to believe. They all say I'm > so politically incorrect that I wouldn't last a week in today's world. > If their stories are true, yeah, that's not for me. > > Weird politics and crappy programmers, count me out. >