[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Walter F.J. Mueller]

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Hi Ross,

you'll find on the Bitsavers Site (http://www.bitsavers.org)
lots of documents, some handbooks under

   http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/

and the "PDP-11 Processor Handbook - PDP11/04/34a/44/60/70" under

   http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/PDP11_Handbook1979.pdf

Under http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11 is quite a bit on various
pdp-11 models, for example the "KB11-C Processor Manual (PDP-11/70)"

   http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/EK-KB11C-TM-001_1170procMan.pdf

in case you'd like to go into details :).

			With best regards,	Walter

-- 
Dr. Walter F.J. Müller    Mail:  W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de
GSI,  Abteilung KP3       Phone: +49-6159-71-2766
D-64291 Darmstadt         FAX:   +49-6159-71-3762
URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Toby Thain]

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On 24-Jan-07, at 4:52 PM, Walter F.J. Mueller wrote:

> Hi Ross,
>
> you'll find on the Bitsavers Site (http://www.bitsavers.org)
> lots of documents, some handbooks under
>
>    http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/
>
> and the "PDP-11 Processor Handbook - PDP11/04/34a/44/60/70" under
>
>    http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/ 
> PDP11_Handbook1979.pdf

Yes, I remember seeing that one years ago. But only that one. I guess  
the difficulty of scanning small perfect bound books (without  
guillotining the spine off) doesn't help productivity :-)

--T

>
> Under http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11 is quite a bit on various
> pdp-11 models, for example the "KB11-C Processor Manual (PDP-11/70)"
>
>    http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/EK-KB11C- 
> TM-001_1170procMan.pdf
>
> in case you'd like to go into details :).
>
> 			With best regards,	Walter
>
> -- 
> Dr. Walter F.J. Müller    Mail:  W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de
> GSI,  Abteilung KP3       Phone: +49-6159-71-2766
> D-64291 Darmstadt         FAX:   +49-6159-71-3762
> URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Kevin McQuiggin]

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[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Mike Cheponis]

It's really nice to have an original paper copy, especially the 1975 one recommended.

I'd suggest eBay as a source for it, though, if you can wait a bit until one shows up.

-Mike

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, Kevin McQuiggin wrote:

> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:42:08 -0800
> From: Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi at sfu.ca>
> To: iking at killthewabbit.org
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy
> 
> Why not just download one from one of the many online archives?  Most of
> them are in PDF format.
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:25:52 -0800 iking at killthewabbit.org wrote:
>> Wow, they're saying $40 for the 1978 book?  I don't think I'll lend out my
>> copy....
>>
>> FYI, I run v6 on a PDP-11/34a with RK05 drives.  The kernel that boots up
>> from the install media tries to be pretty generic, and yes, you can make
>> changes to it to optimize it for various platforms.
>>
>> So the real question is: what do you want to do?  If you just want to run
> a
>> PDP-11 in emulation, any of these books will do fine for you.  The basic
>> PDP-11 instruction set is pretty constant across the series (with some
>> niggling exceptions, but nothing you're likely to deal with in an
>> emulator).
>> There were extended instruction sets for some models, but again with an
>> emulator you can play to your heart's content.  There were some
> differences
>> in memory management, which may or may not be important depending on what
>> you want to run; again, v6 runs fine on an 11/34 without separate I/D
>> spaces, while v7 and 2.11BSD require it (as I recall).  But once
>> again, simh
>> will let you rock on with any of these OS's.
>>
>> For understanding Lions (i.e. understanding the underlying hardware
>> better),
>> any of these will do.  IMHO, YMMV, MOUSE.  And welcome to the community!
>> Cheers -- Ian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Ross Tucker
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:11 PM
>> To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
>> Subject: [pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy
>>
>> Hello all-
>> I'm a n00b on this list, so please forgive me my sins as I forgive those
>> who.... uh, never mind. Anyway, I am looking to get a "PDP-11 Processor
>> Handbook" from Amazon or eBay (so I can understand the Lions
>> book) and there are so many different editions and versions... Lions
> writes
>> about the 11/40, but supposedly, that's not too different from the /45 or
>> /70. My simh boot images for v6 are for the /45 (though supposedly I'm
>> supposed to be able to modify them to run on the others, right?).
>>
>> What I'm asking is your advice on which Handbook to buy. Here is a
> synopsis
>> on the editions and prices from amazon:
>> /04/34A/44/60/70  (1979) $10
>> /04/34/45/55/60  (1978) $40
>> /70 (1975) $16
>> /04, 24, 34A, 70 (Jun 1981) $16
>> /04/05/10/35/40/45 (1975) $45
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> Ross
>> _______________________________________________
>> PUPS mailing list
>> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PUPS mailing list
>> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Toby Thain]

On 24-Jan-07, at 4:42 AM, Kevin McQuiggin wrote:

> Why not just download one from one of the many online archives?   
> Most of
> them are in PDF format.


Actually I've never seen a handbook online, and I've scoured DEC  
archives - just not for a year or so. Has this changed?

--T

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Andreas Hein]

Most of the infos, i need for my own PDP11-FPGA project, i found on:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11

see the sub-folder "handbooks" there you will find a Processor-Handbook as well.

--AH
-------------------------
Original-Nachricht:
Von: Toby Thain <toby at smartgames.ca>
An: Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi at sfu.ca>
Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
Datum: Mittwoch, 24 Januar 2007 13:29
Betreff: Re: [pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

On 24-Jan-07, at 4:42 AM, Kevin McQuiggin wrote:

> Why not just download one from one of the many online archives?   
> Most of
> them are in PDF format.


Actually I've never seen a handbook online, and I've scoured DEC  
archives - just not for a year or so. Has this changed?

--T

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PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
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[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Ross Tucker]

Hello all-
I'm a n00b on this list, so please forgive me my sins as I forgive
those who.... uh, never mind. Anyway, I am looking to get a "PDP-11
Processor Handbook" from Amazon or eBay (so I can understand the Lions
book) and there are so many different editions and versions... Lions
writes about the 11/40, but supposedly, that's not too different from
the /45 or /70. My simh boot images for v6 are for the /45 (though
supposedly I'm supposed to be able to modify them to run on the
others, right?).

What I'm asking is your advice on which Handbook to buy. Here is a
synopsis on the editions and prices from amazon:
/04/34A/44/60/70  (1979) $10
/04/34/45/55/60  (1978) $40
/70 (1975) $16
/04, 24, 34A, 70 (Jun 1981) $16
/04/05/10/35/40/45 (1975) $45

What do you think?

Thanks for your time,
Ross

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Guy Sotomayor]

Ross Tucker wrote:
> Hello all-
> I'm a n00b on this list, so please forgive me my sins as I forgive
> those who.... uh, never mind. Anyway, I am looking to get a "PDP-11
> Processor Handbook" from Amazon or eBay (so I can understand the Lions
> book) and there are so many different editions and versions... Lions
> writes about the 11/40, but supposedly, that's not too different from
> the /45 or /70. My simh boot images for v6 are for the /45 (though
> supposedly I'm supposed to be able to modify them to run on the
> others, right?).
>   
There are a number of differences between the /40 & /45 and /70:

    * 45 & 70 are split I & D machines
    * /40 has it own floating point that is incompatible with any others
    * 11/34 is basically an 11/40 (but can have the compatible floating
      point)
    * 70 has a Unibus map that allows it to have > 128KW (256KB).
    * 45 & 70 have user/supervisor/kernel mode while others just have
      user/kernel mode
    * there are a few other differences that escape me at the moment

> What I'm asking is your advice on which Handbook to buy. Here is a
> synopsis on the editions and prices from amazon:
> /04/34A/44/60/70  (1979) $10
> /04/34/45/55/60  (1978) $40
> /70 (1975) $16
> /04, 24, 34A, 70 (Jun 1981) $16
> /04/05/10/35/40/45 (1975) $45
>
>   
If you're trying to understand Lyons, then I'd probably go with the last 
book as the /40 & /45 were the ones most likely to be running v6 
originally (although I did run it on a /34 back in the day).

-- 

TTFN - Guy

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Ian King]

Wow, they're saying $40 for the 1978 book?  I don't think I'll lend out my
copy....

FYI, I run v6 on a PDP-11/34a with RK05 drives.  The kernel that boots up
from the install media tries to be pretty generic, and yes, you can make
changes to it to optimize it for various platforms.  

So the real question is: what do you want to do?  If you just want to run a
PDP-11 in emulation, any of these books will do fine for you.  The basic
PDP-11 instruction set is pretty constant across the series (with some
niggling exceptions, but nothing you're likely to deal with in an emulator).
There were extended instruction sets for some models, but again with an
emulator you can play to your heart's content.  There were some differences
in memory management, which may or may not be important depending on what
you want to run; again, v6 runs fine on an 11/34 without separate I/D
spaces, while v7 and 2.11BSD require it (as I recall).  But once again, simh
will let you rock on with any of these OS's.  

For understanding Lions (i.e. understanding the underlying hardware better),
any of these will do.  IMHO, YMMV, MOUSE.  And welcome to the community!
Cheers -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: pups-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Tucker
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:11 PM
To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: [pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

Hello all-
I'm a n00b on this list, so please forgive me my sins as I forgive those
who.... uh, never mind. Anyway, I am looking to get a "PDP-11 Processor
Handbook" from Amazon or eBay (so I can understand the Lions
book) and there are so many different editions and versions... Lions writes
about the 11/40, but supposedly, that's not too different from the /45 or
/70. My simh boot images for v6 are for the /45 (though supposedly I'm
supposed to be able to modify them to run on the others, right?).

What I'm asking is your advice on which Handbook to buy. Here is a synopsis
on the editions and prices from amazon:
/04/34A/44/60/70  (1979) $10
/04/34/45/55/60  (1978) $40
/70 (1975) $16
/04, 24, 34A, 70 (Jun 1981) $16
/04/05/10/35/40/45 (1975) $45

What do you think?

Thanks for your time,
Ross
_______________________________________________
PUPS mailing list
PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Johnny Billquist]

If you want to understand the PDP-11 assembly language, any of them will do.

If you want to understand the MMU and some esoteric stuff, it might be a 
good idea to get one of the books that actually cover the exact 
processor you're interested in.

The basic instruction set is the same on all of the processors. There 
are some very minor differences, but those are not even properly 
documented in most of these books, and relate to how condition codes are 
affected for some odd cases that you normally don't care about.

The major groupings you can do with the PDP-11 systems are otherwise if 
they have split I/D space, supervisor mode, unibus map and 22-bit 
addressing, floating point (none/FIS/FPP) and EIS.
Rougly, you can say:

11/34: EIS. Optional FPP.
11/40: None of that. Optional EIS and FIS.
11/44: All of it. Optional FPP.
11/45: split I/D, supervisor, EIS. Optional FPP.
11/60: EIS. Optional FPP.
11/70: All of it. Optional FPP.

	Johnny

Ross Tucker skrev:
> Hello all-
> I'm a n00b on this list, so please forgive me my sins as I forgive
> those who.... uh, never mind. Anyway, I am looking to get a "PDP-11
> Processor Handbook" from Amazon or eBay (so I can understand the Lions
> book) and there are so many different editions and versions... Lions
> writes about the 11/40, but supposedly, that's not too different from
> the /45 or /70. My simh boot images for v6 are for the /45 (though
> supposedly I'm supposed to be able to modify them to run on the
> others, right?).
> 
> What I'm asking is your advice on which Handbook to buy. Here is a
> synopsis on the editions and prices from amazon:
> /04/34A/44/60/70  (1979) $10
> /04/34/45/55/60  (1978) $40
> /70 (1975) $16
> /04, 24, 34A, 70 (Jun 1981) $16
> /04/05/10/35/40/45 (1975) $45
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Thanks for your time,
> Ross
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Bill Gunshannon]

> The major groupings you can do with the PDP-11 systems are otherwise if
> they have split I/D space, supervisor mode, unibus map and 22-bit
> addressing, floating point (none/FIS/FPP) and EIS.
> Rougly, you can say:
>
> 11/34: EIS. Optional FPP.
> 11/40: None of that. Optional EIS and FIS.
> 11/44: All of it. Optional FPP.
> 11/45: split I/D, supervisor, EIS. Optional FPP.
> 11/60: EIS. Optional FPP.
> 11/70: All of it. Optional FPP

And let's not forget the CIS Option.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

[pups] Advice on which PDP-11 processor handbook to buy

[Johnny Billquist]

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>The major groupings you can do with the PDP-11 systems are otherwise if
>>they have split I/D space, supervisor mode, unibus map and 22-bit
>>addressing, floating point (none/FIS/FPP) and EIS.
>>Rougly, you can say:
>>
>>11/34: EIS. Optional FPP.
>>11/40: None of that. Optional EIS and FIS.
>>11/44: All of it. Optional FPP.
>>11/45: split I/D, supervisor, EIS. Optional FPP.
>>11/60: EIS. Optional FPP.
>>11/70: All of it. Optional FPP
> 
> And let's not forget the CIS Option.  :-)

Right. And I forgot to mention the 11/24 as well. (I'm ignoring the 
Q-bus machines, and really old/small unibus machines as well.)

So we also have CIS. And to adjust the list above:
11/24: EIS, unibus map and 22-bit addressing. Optional FPP and CIS.
11/44: Optional CIS.

	Johnny