From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18183 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 22:18:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 22:18:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098C14001F; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:17:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8C2424CA for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:17:15 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 285f7289-9dc7-11ed-afdd-005056abad63 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.40]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 285f7289-9dc7-11ed-afdd-005056abad63; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=gLg0SGTc8UpOxL9e6ETmF/1vrFo4TzJN/Ss2FV9ckRU=; b=q0Y9PNV/19pqH+kQJl6lFbt7ryZ/yabK9QaHlICpZssa61Tn6SM4JKE6UVt93Lz9cyKSKfzX7GJww Y2BgUeILjMJheSWYOPG52Cx7Av4pU1yeCU++ZMDaTpy/X7opoSYKLMET1HwLIQT3L+4zdu5GkqAiI2 hR0GF51DcbvO2Rzo= X-KPN-MID: 33|YhkxpgYxUnyB3CIuBZGjm82JC04DsmE9FX64n3IkTAD2/pISK20BPOQnFBYL079 V4FMBGo2ZGotpO7j5gyq24WHHc5/sba3QJC5qoN52shs= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|cdvwSgWNQE/ebX+C+nmukGChyL58Vf0+l8L7II9ck3p/t/gIxTsAKj2u8ewaTdd XUTgO0p9p74ksfG1CqkEyOQ== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 28fd16dd-9dc7-11ed-927c-005056ab7584; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:03 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:02 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: PKGVHTVSPJHISVWBRY4G4MPO6ON6D66G X-Message-ID-Hash: PKGVHTVSPJHISVWBRY4G4MPO6ON6D66G X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Bakul Shah X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Spam: Yes > On 26 Jan 2023, at 17:29, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >> Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of = cheap(er) graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 = resolution, but up to 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes = that the breakout product for Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to = AutoCAD). Initially developed for S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to = the PC. There was a lot of demand for CAD at a 5K price point that did = not exist at a 50K price point. > Not completely true... 1-4K for BW was possible (expensive) but = available. I tend to believe that systems like E&S could do that. Many = raster systems went to 1K -- again is was about cost. I've forgotten the = resolution of the GDP2 but is was much higher -- it used a rather = expensive HP display. The price of memory and price of the monitor = tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not cheap -- a GDP2 had a = dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things like GT40 and the = similar systems of the time. I meant early micro/home computers. I think John Walker was comparing = the typical late 70=E2=80=99s CAD (drawing) system, i.e a mini computer, = a few graphics terminals and CAD software versus Interact running on a = S-100 system with a high end graphics card, a digitiser board and a = terminal. See for instance here: https://www.3dcadworld.com/autocads-ancestor/ > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must = have been something > Again - W was the windowing system for the Sun board, running on the V = kernel. It was original envisioned as a very smart terminal to bigger = systems. Remember it did not have an MMU to start with. Andy added and = MMU and then eventually changed it to a 68010. VLSI Tech was born and = eventual became Sun Micro Systems but that was a few years later. I = have to believe W as moved to UNIX on the SUN Terminal and that would = have been what Chris Kent and folks started with for the microVax - but = I do not know for sure. > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 09:51:59 -0700 > From: Warner Losh >=20 >> - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must = have been something >=20 > If this is the sun microsystem sun-1, the leaked sources online = suggest that these initially ran a V7 port by Unisoft. This switched to = a 4.2BSD port maybe before it went to customers as SunOS 1.0 if other = leaked sources can be believed. I never really distinguished between the Stanford "SUN" and the Sun = Microsystems "Sun-1=E2=80=9D, oops. Taking Clem=E2=80=99s comment into = account I could see that the SUN ran the V kernel and the W graphics = system, and that the Sun-1 was using an early form of X. > Bakul Shah bakul at iitbombay.org=20 > Fri Jan 27 05:39:30 AEST 2023 >=20 > I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to = have > pretty much the same model. > =46rom https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 That is an interesting thought and paper. The paper says: "As noted in Section 3, the VGTS is only one component of the user = interface software. The other components are the view manager, the exec = server, and the executives. Together, the view manager and exec server = constitute the user interface management.=E2=80=9D In this context an =E2=80=9Cexecutive=E2=80=9D seems to be similar to a = shell, the exec server appears to manage client connections and the view = manager seems to be similar to a window manager in X. Maybe this whole = was (later?) referred to as =E2=80=9CW=E2=80=9D? This was the post announcing X: From: rws@mit-bold (Robert W. Scheifler) To: window@athena Subject: window system X Date: 19 Jun 1984 0907-EDT (Tuesday) I've spent the last couple weeks writing a window system for the VS100. I stole a fair amount of code from W, surrounded it with an asynchronous rather than a synchronous interface, and called it X. Overall performance appears to be about twice that of W. The code seems fairly solid at this point, although there are still some deficiencies to be fixed up.=20 We at LCS have stopped using W, and are now actively building applications on X. Anyone else using W should seriously consider switching. This is not the ultimate window system, but I believe it is a good starting point for experimentation. Right at the moment there is a CLU (and an Argus) interface to X; a C interface is in the works. The three existing applications are a text editor (TED), an Argus I/O interface, and a primitive window manager. There is no documentation yet; anyone crazy enough to volunteer? I may get around to it eventually.=20 Anyone interested in seeing a demo can drop by NE43-531, although you may want to call 3-1945 first. Anyone who wants the code can come by with a tape. Anyone interested in hacking deficiencies, feel free to get in touch.