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[99.8.241.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t2-20020a4ad0a2000000b0042599b92c21sm12175206oor.47.2022.07.03.10.48.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Jul 2022 10:48:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <08E9845C-CA79-4CBD-B7F1-508F0E5D1AF6@iitbombay.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CB5EC0E-9F7B-408B-9F4C-1D1A00BFAB47" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.100.31\)) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:48:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <20220702210244.GU11191@mcvoy.com> <20220703022743.GA15738@mcvoy.com> <20220703143906.GD18597@mcvoy.com> <5E49BE69-8869-473A-B3F5-6744566700F0@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.100.31) Message-ID-Hash: BOY5TI3SSRTE7XRPTO7TYLIDVHHRXEZS X-Message-ID-Hash: BOY5TI3SSRTE7XRPTO7TYLIDVHHRXEZS X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: steve jenkin , TUHS , Marc Donner X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_7CB5EC0E-9F7B-408B-9F4C-1D1A00BFAB47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jul 3, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul Shah > wrote: > You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation = that was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of = memory protection as it was designed to run on 8088. > Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a uK. And yes, M1 = does not need an MMU - since it was designed to run on an 8088. IIRC = this was Linus' original objection when he wanted to run on his = 386-based PC (Wyse 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach = his students about V7 without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions = had with V6. Er.. a "microkernel" without an MMU is basically nothing more than a = thread switcher (not unlike a variety of "realtime" embedded kernels = like threadX and what not).=20 > What runs on the Intel Management Engine > It's called the Intelligent Platform Management Interface = - a.k.a. IPMI > is MINIX 3, ... with NetBSD userland. > Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is correct = (remember for whom I work).=20 Not sure which statements you are talking about that are incorrect. Minix3 running on ME was in the news a few years back. See for instance: = https://itsfoss.com/fact-intel-minix-case/ -- Websearch reveals many = articles on IME + MINIX, hardly any to IPMI + MINIX. MINIX 3 + NetBSD userland is pretty much what minix3.org website says! [And no, I was not aware of who you work for.] In any case, sounds like you were talking about something not = (well)known outside of Intel. > MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related=20 > That's because M3 added the MMU support that M1 lacked. But there is = nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version = from Andy's team. What IPMI has as an underlying uK is heavily hacked = and is a 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically providing V7 = interfaces to some special programs.=20 I think Tanenbaum's point was that MINIX3 is nothing like MINIX1 except = in name. > It made little sense to recreate something for the platform engine, = and Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the *BSDs and = was not GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. =20 No argument here :-) > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 --Apple-Mail=_7CB5EC0E-9F7B-408B-9F4C-1D1A00BFAB47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Jul 3, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:



On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul = Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It = was a from-scratch implementation that was syscall compatible with V7 = but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory protection as it was designed = to run on 8088.
Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a = uK.  And yes, M1 does not need an MMU - since it was designed to = run on an 8088.  IIRC this was Linus' original objection = when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wyse 32:16 box, IIRC). The = key was Andy wanted to teach his students about V7 without running = afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with = V6.

Er.. a "microkernel" without an MMU is basically = nothing more than a thread switcher (not unlike a variety of "realtime" = embedded kernels like threadX and what not). 

What runs on the Intel = Management Engine
It's called = the Intelligent Platform Management Interface = - a.k.a. = IPMI

 is MINIX 3, ... with = NetBSD userland.
Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is = correct (remember for whom I = work). 

Not sure which statements you are talking about = that are incorrect.

Minix3 = running on ME was in the news a few years back. See for = instance: https://itsfoss.com/fact-intel-minix-case/ -- Websearch = reveals many articles on IME + MINIX, hardly any to IPMI + = MINIX.

MINIX 3 + NetBSD = userland is pretty much what minix3.org website says!

[And no, I was not aware of who you = work for.]

In any case, sounds like = you were talking about something not (well)known outside of = Intel.

 MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related 
That's because M3 added = the MMU support that M1 lacked.   But there is nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other = than it is the current version from Andy's team.  What IPMI has as = an underlying uK is heavily hacked and is a 'derivative work' - the = local uk is basically providing V7 interfaces to some special = programs.  =

I think Tanenbaum's point was that MINIX3 is nothing like MINIX1 except in name.

It made little sense to recreate something for the platform = engine, and Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the = *BSDs and was not GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. =  

No argument here :-)
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7<= /div>

= --Apple-Mail=_7CB5EC0E-9F7B-408B-9F4C-1D1A00BFAB47--