From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MIME_HTML_ONLY,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,MPART_ALT_DIFF autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13779 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 00:31:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 00:31:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4AE423FA; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:31:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FDD5423EE for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:31:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51217A7EE for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2023 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date :subject:message-id:to; s=sasl; bh=04Tt8z57pV3/m4Q/hJCxhYu3PZcEM y/ya+5JRDz7Hg0=; b=lbZvX2dNE4Bm4O8H9oUHFfvsN87SpskyjUe1uF4uXD4JC g6UNQyOgAsBpxiPfyAA+7i1ZEwURerFZ0D9YuCl9iXCOf9PhhrOES2uhs79HQY6v cADBNvNsQplO7CxXujqf/dCBr0S9IWOsQOkX8wgSWF1icUGdHKbs49qZdh4pQs= Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BE217A7ED for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2023 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=josephholsten.com; h=content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; s=mesmtp; bh=04Tt8z57pV3/m4Q/hJCxhYu3PZcEMy/ya+5JRDz7Hg0=; b=ZxKOjr960IOWYnlsGS+JOktQgdSxLXQ+zO6bjo5q4STVUI0AuSwGNfbtJcpCIDsh2r2ru/RfBDLwIyYOWMxhr9Czrb8APsDvfCKwAQ5SWUz8Hk38WA1b+OP8/XS24WPPgsN/TY5KAxdPfSDat7uzF5TV2r9NXEUzsdo5/viE0OM= Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [98.59.217.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2D6817A7E9 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2023 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-22261B71-47DA-4F34-BF62-B4F10F089E33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joseph Holsten Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 16:31:12 -0800 Message-Id: To: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20C65) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: C3B53456-9D10-11ED-A4EC-307A8E0A682E-15777318!pb-smtp2.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: XHLZFKI5MTCUD7JWZHCZ3XN7UE6ELWOJ X-Message-ID-Hash: XHLZFKI5MTCUD7JWZHCZ3XN7UE6ELWOJ X-MailFrom: joseph@josephholsten.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail-22261B71-47DA-4F34-BF62-B4F10F089E33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems like there are bountiful articles a= ble the decline and fall of the UNIX workstation, but I=E2=80=99ve had a har= d time finding narrative about workstations prior to the Stanford SUN workst= ation.

* was the SUN-1 the first commercially successful p= roduct? What are the =E2=80=9Cit depends=E2=80=9D edge cases?
* we= re there common recipes for proto-workstations within academic or industrial= research? What did those look like, who was involved?
* What do I= really mean by workstation? Ex.gr. If an installation had a PDP-11 with a s= ingle terminal and operator, is it not a workstation? Is it the integration o= f display into the system that differentiates? 

--
= --Apple-Mail-22261B71-47DA-4F34-BF62-B4F10F089E33-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2624 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 15:58:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 15:58:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEF74248D; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:58:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.167]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E55DF4248C for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:58:20 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 3c3f8324-9d92-11ed-b20d-005056abbe64 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.39]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 3c3f8324-9d92-11ed-b20d-005056abbe64; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:58:12 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=Gv91Bj0224I3Cx7niph8QZaoOucYNtd9ScNxx+e+WEE=; b=hWWT/QRmSd/3meu1DTroWIuA90V6Dxe1Td4jh7yh/0QlyH94ROvnh97YBS4bRuBMDfBpaslp4cdya PEEqrMBtnMWDTruobtEdIJwgtXZtfYIlWYjYc9A2iUc73pro7XtMwN2LttfaWfKUhSLgfysRJaw6Eg 7hne2lEEeccueRnI= X-KPN-MID: 33|xiof96irDowMhAeFhOuMi6jWq3m1WWNMSAl72FNP56f7nBGBc3ZHxdLsYCCro9d pu39oSa5SA08z10NzdqPx+UDsUY5q9mYRFGMsfwDgHYM= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|MzVI50rigXUOxgZ6hU5Ds7LT9gV+Q9pc2xqcvtzoCR1c1wiqoQpdBwNPjJR09Ur 9ds64xyyU+mUs0pCaabhvZA== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 3c3e1ae4-9d92-11ed-ab4c-005056ab7447; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:58:12 +0100 (CET) From: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:58:11 +0100 To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: FMZWKKOO3XCNRFAYFMFLTMH26QLQHWA5 X-Message-ID-Hash: FMZWKKOO3XCNRFAYFMFLTMH26QLQHWA5 X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to = understand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in = my preferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. = This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 = vector graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a = driver for it - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but = it also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must = have been something - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure = when it became Unix centered - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) = graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but = up to 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout = product for Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially = developed for S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a = lot of demand for CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K = price point. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3544 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 16:04:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 16:04:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC54C42490; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7061C4248C for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 0485935E603; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:04:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:04:20 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Paul Ruizendaal Message-ID: <20230126160420.GL9901@mcvoy.com> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Message-ID-Hash: YLO2TCVODCXQBEVE55XPZOMGQP5NULAG X-Message-ID-Hash: YLO2TCVODCXQBEVE55XPZOMGQP5NULAG X-MailFrom: lm@mcvoy.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 04:58:11PM +0100, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have been something Probably SunView, that's the first one I saw. It was SunView OpenLook (SunView ported to X11) CDE NeWS I used either straight X11 or OpenLook but replacing the window manager with twm and then ctwm. Did the same thing at SGI, I hated all the fancy desktops each vendor did. In the days of 4MB or 8MB or even 32MB desktops, all that "fancy" used memory that I needed for actual real work, like building the kernel. Straight X11 with a simple window manager gave me a lot of memory back. I viewed that fancy stuff as stuff for people who didn't do real work. A bit of a snob, I was :-) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6903 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 16:31:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 16:31:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFEE42495; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:30:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f178.google.com (mail-vk1-f178.google.com [209.85.221.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90EE241BBF for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:30:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f178.google.com with SMTP id z190so1134985vka.4 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:30:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1PsSjr9reNVb+q2IR2bLywh5V+zB+e/w2GfnhFHO93A=; b=l0Nk2Na1spQHzv7dQMgSZ/Bafy6ICHcaPtASb/PZRYW4Qe/d18rTjojwYu4SjHbnl6 uy9jmvhZg+UG9IZtzVWG2jw/N4wNSXHvcD5OKp9RhkmWBbk1Ybv/gchJiXryaoN43Pc8 xMuIt/j8mQlZMXFtM6QPOd8Wco9kbbK2rUmXw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=1PsSjr9reNVb+q2IR2bLywh5V+zB+e/w2GfnhFHO93A=; b=EXhi74XVgJZmEmSr2xvmUiVkXTI50nM1Qx01m5GyTqgTdjDShWthV9lc/jSJWwh+3+ eYs1h9DvjO4M85tifI7FuSkhoFesbaaTirTeUaTtDWiT81vhV9CXBBdlQGTxKTmuyx1b GKZH/Lq4o8QsDd9OQ5hOQeQLqqzpxb5MzGDuJI7Qnp2CNh0apJ4eUSyat4X234rhpuQP msFYO9kMmaDvaTbK2ukfF6/yudQP9KItR1X1r5B+g9wHFXOP/pNxjyH4rUoA2+qRMlsu /EZcj3zJ0A3I5zdbBuFCri7P4YoM+4cUMmTUbA+hHnqSAqW2DAugvQm5upihfF8M32F5 6hJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpPfnTL1zx9zaBUNN+qUesBeqowmQbRB+ULInRogp6BN3UfmUfA cqb0rJXbt6sU9bgu1cjd4PS+1KtV0SDSDfoBa7i9F3V/tjlRUX9Znjw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXu+jqGle3HR2rKWD2OEqGOf0dgLYRyCOFE+KaBkQ9Vk+Ahrn1Sjb6kdNB3zFc0T7liXVPqDJg3Ho3H0TJTeqa0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:11b2:b0:3e2:c1e:a32b with SMTP id y18-20020a05612211b200b003e20c1ea32bmr3055278vkn.9.1674750579474; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:29:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:29:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7" Message-ID-Hash: ZRQGUGSUAWZPQJEIEN4EHZGPOCO5ADL5 X-Message-ID-Hash: ZRQGUGSUAWZPQJEIEN4EHZGPOCO5ADL5 X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:58 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to u= nderstand > the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my preferred > time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. > > When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: > > - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. > This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. > - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vecto= r > graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver fo= r > it > - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but i= t > also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) > In the famous picture of Ken and Dennis you see a Tek display connected to the 11/20. Simply during that time there were a number of graphics systems from the DVST (storage tubes) like Tek 4014 to Raster Systems like the GDPs we had at CMU. There really are too many to list. > - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. > - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore > > Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: > > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have > been something > Again - W was the windowing system for the Sun board, running on the V kernel. It was original envisioned as a very smart terminal to bigger systems. Remember it did not have an MMU to start with. Andy added and MMU and then eventually changed it to a 68010. VLSI Tech was born and eventual became Sun Micro Systems but that was a few years later. I have to believe W as moved to UNIX on the SUN Terminal and that would have been what Chris Kent and folks started with for the microVax - but I do not know for sure. > - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system > 1979/1980 actually -- Roger and I started that in summer of '79 and he wrote that a year later when we go Tek money. It was originall as 'g-job' we were building for ourselves. Our boss saw what were were doing and Roger got $10K to do a proposal -- that document was the result. I already had the basics of a compiler working by them (well sort of) and the beginning of a Unix port on the test board. Jon Steinhart may be remember some of this as they all visited us in the labs to see what we were doing. - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it > became Unix centered > - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? > > Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) > graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up= to 512 x > 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product for > Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed for > S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or > CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point. > Not completely true... 1-4K for BW was possible (expensive) but available. I tend to believe that systems like E&S could do that. Many raster systems went to 1K -- again is was about cost. I've forgotten the resolution of the GDP2 but is was much higher -- it used a rather expensive HP display. The price of memory and price of the monitor tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not cheap -- a GDP2 had a dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things like GT40 and the similar systems of the time. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:5= 8 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl= > wrote:

As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to und= erstand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my pre= ferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985.

When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following:

- around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. Thi= s was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think.
- around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vector = graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver for = it
- in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but it = also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later)
= =C2=A0In the famous picture of Ken and Dennis=C2=A0you see a Tek display co= nnected to the 11/20.
Simply during that time there were a number o= f graphics systems from the DVST (storage tubes) like Tek 4014 to Raster Sy= stems like the GDPs we had at CMU. There really are too many to list.
=
=C2=A0
Again - W was the windowing system fo= r the Sun board, running on the V kernel.=C2=A0 It was original envisioned = as a very smart terminal to bigger systems.=C2=A0 Remember it did not have = an MMU to start with.=C2=A0 Andy added and MMU and then eventually changed = it to a 68010.=C2=A0 VLSI Tech was born and eventual became Sun Micro Syste= ms but that was a few years later.=C2=A0 I have to believe W as moved to UN= IX on the SUN Terminal and that would have been what Chris Kent and folks s= tarted with for the microVax - but I do not know for sure.

<= div>
=C2=A0
- Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system
1979/1980 actually -- Roger and I started that in summer of '79 and he= wrote that a year later when we go Tek money.=C2=A0 It was originall as &#= 39;g-job' we were building for ourselves.=C2=A0 Our boss saw what were = were doing and Roger got $10K to do a proposal -- that document was the res= ult.

I already had the basics of a compiler working by= them (well sort of) and the beginning of a Unix port on the test board. Jo= n Steinhart may be remember some of this as they all visited us in the labs= to see what we were doing.

- Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it became Unix centered
- Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think?

Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) gr= aphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up to = 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product f= or Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed fo= r S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point.
Not completely true...=C2=A0 1-4K for BW was p= ossible (expensive) but available.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0 tend to believe that syste= ms like E&S could do that. Many raster systems went to 1K -- again is w= as about cost. I've forgotten the resolution of the GDP2 but is was muc= h higher -- it used a rather expensive HP display.=C2=A0 The price of memor= y and price of the monitor tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not c= heap -- a GDP2 had a dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things l= ike GT40 and the similar=C2=A0systems of the time.
=
3D""=E1=90=A7
--000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7747 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 16:37:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 16:37:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C6D4249D; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:37:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from gateway9.unifiedlayer.com (gateway9.unifiedlayer.com [74.220.218.253]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4BFC4241A for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:37:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from atl3asocm01.websitewelcome.com (unknown [50.6.128.70]) by gateway9.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBC320092E85 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:37:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from shared83.accountservergroup.com ([162.215.248.81]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id L5FXp3qCrYCeuL5FXpi22n; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:37:20 +0000 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=e-bbes.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WFCMSNfpqegN0tlVdYBn0IasbRJaFjwrIXtmMN26l1Y=; b=vEiMRN9CyQBOCvXkr3+FvejDC5 4q7CozEuoiSmI2mQbkR0yaRcMFGaqrFKi9dwcZBmpPbEioFY72LR2Y4UAfj2vlAwOVskAsITQJ57B w/UeTTms6jER0UF0lxxlZ7JWv7q47ORKuTYWljR655jdj4+BK6syKEdcegK7WRKESnXiJwqJBTtvn BS2K07LpBz0Ec952gmhOLyhaSO9hmRoi04pnDuWxkk7NAUU9Hl/XueZ/cJezhLbWcFmE+Kyjx0+gN UFXoaLOjFL7NlbfMZZpEMBp+tvUiMe+J8PsUfsmKPxClDmIsl4RCVtPTpZIXj+qdPtfKbGu4sx0FZ EMk96uRg==; Received: from rrcs-108-176-122-118.nys.biz.rr.com ([108.176.122.118]:59908 helo=[192.168.1.125]) by shared83.accountservergroup.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1pL5FX-0033M3-6h; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:37:19 -0600 Message-ID: <933e6be8-7d19-4e4c-950d-832b84a5f186@e-bbes.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:37:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Larry McVoy , Paul Ruizendaal References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <20230126160420.GL9901@mcvoy.com> From: emanuel stiebler In-Reply-To: <20230126160420.GL9901@mcvoy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - shared83.accountservergroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - tuhs.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - e-bbes.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 108.176.122.118 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1pL5FX-0033M3-6h X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: rrcs-108-176-122-118.nys.biz.rr.com ([192.168.1.125]) [108.176.122.118]:59908 X-Source-Auth: emu@e-bbes.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: ZW11YmVzO2VtdWJlcztzaGFyZWQ4My5hY2NvdW50c2VydmVyZ3JvdXAuY29t X-Local-Domain: yes Message-ID-Hash: TFBF2Y2UXHA5V5CDR5W3XP3C3ZXTFNMR X-Message-ID-Hash: TFBF2Y2UXHA5V5CDR5W3XP3C3ZXTFNMR X-MailFrom: emu@e-bbes.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 2023-01-26 11:04, Larry McVoy wrote: > [..] Straight X11 with a simple window > manager gave me a lot of memory back. > > I viewed that fancy stuff as stuff for people who didn't do real work. > A bit of a snob, I was :-) Xclock & many xterms, that what was on my desktop. Just replacing all the terminals, and to have one xterm with more lines for editing. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9423 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 16:51:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 16:51:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82422424A6; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:51:21 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1674751881; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=B5DsLhIZgoOzUFsDasjX/iZu4RFALXMPG8En8aIoJbo=; b=MypgTD7sTI2AkoRPaPBgcpDNB4zgCur45CgMLHCydP7LEbAUA6xKouHN9Ra7aThSNMDFwm m/nxB/DWo9twZiTvMIjxKyMwGRBIUmmNCbKv0YlvQ64qmfX6a8G/apSUrQCS/MWjHhYaEc Hf/ZxCIsRJGZ8UGmWW9rcYAEbS1OZGY= Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch (mail-4325.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 550EE424A1 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:51:17 +1000 (AEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:51:13 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1674751875; x=1675011075; bh=B5DsLhIZgoOzUFsDasjX/iZu4RFALXMPG8En8aIoJbo=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=REHt5SSV7ZNce85dq9UZgPPUTP+PmVJe3p3BxU84ZWEXjDAxm+icPcVwtp04wPwvG vPIewtPtPzxvADoa+BaOg1wO57+299rhIDRRSajbVsMYZV18DtTXL9r+8zI1rDZIA3 +EA91X9paASoGnTs24pA+TTg/DDdet17XqHtKUX5Lt45HQ2Gk6TYUIQUp3ybDvmK9u 8oNkNaC6f6temo5fJXY63I7hiaUD7QcTsal98g2+07HYqNj2BcURvkUtuZLoe5QcCp XxQb7bYQrIRmnCevBVPIUnR+y3SvwKzsdrFyj6guvYYV6SWb+AqUOHoopl2K3GdDBm 1Hn/idSatT6ag== To: emanuel stiebler Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <933e6be8-7d19-4e4c-950d-832b84a5f186@e-bbes.com> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <20230126160420.GL9901@mcvoy.com> <933e6be8-7d19-4e4c-950d-832b84a5f186@e-bbes.com> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: JF2Y4Y4GANCQOFRHHYN6TQU3QZO654SI X-Message-ID-Hash: JF2Y4Y4GANCQOFRHHYN6TQU3QZO654SI X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco X-Spam: Yes Twm gets the job done for me too. My only gripe is it doesn't support WM f= ull screen hints that a lot of other WMs do so certain things don't full-sc= reen properly, but others do. In either case, not a huge problem, somethin= g if it mattered enough to me I'd just try to patch in. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 8:37 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2023-01-26 11:04, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > > [..] Straight X11 with a simple window > > manager gave me a lot of memory back. > >=20 > > I viewed that fancy stuff as stuff for people who didn't do real work. > > A bit of a snob, I was :-) >=20 >=20 > Xclock & many xterms, that what was on my desktop. Just replacing all > the terminals, and to have one xterm with more lines for editing. 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List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ea6b0905f32d914f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:58 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to u= nderstand > the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my preferred > time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. > > When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: > > - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. > This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. > - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vecto= r > graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver fo= r > it > - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but i= t > also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) > - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. > - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore > > Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: > > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have > been something > If this is the sun microsystem sun-1, the leaked sources online suggest that these initially ran a V7 port by Unisoft. This switched to a 4.2BSD port maybe before it went to customers as SunOS 1.0 if other leaked sources can be believed. If this is the Standford Unix Networked (?) sun, then I don't know. > - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system > - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure = when it > became Unix centered > I believe very early. It ran first on the VS100, and I believe that those machines at project athena were running Unix, but I'm not sure of the cut over from Stanford V. Another thread posted the X announcement which was in June 1984. There was also a pointer to a blog about pictures of the W window system. None exist, it seems. The windowing system pictured in the glossy marketing sheets for the VS100 were for VMS and VMS Windowing System. I'd put money against the first X running on VMS. :) We had X10R3 running on Sun 3/50s in our lab, though more often they ran SunView since it was faster and more familiar to the admins that ran the machines. This was in 86 or 87 I believe. > - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? > No. It had to be late 1987 or 1988 because I ran that on the Sun 3/60 that the Hydrology department that I worked for ran. I didn't run it often, mind you, and the 'generic terminal emulator for any termcap entry' terminal was cool, but it was just a notch too weird for a daily driver. Warner > Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) > graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up= to 512 x > 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product for > Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed for > S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or > CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point. > > > > > > --000000000000ea6b0905f32d914f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:58 AM Paul = Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote= :

As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to und= erstand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my pre= ferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985.

When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following:

- around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. Thi= s was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think.
- around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vector = graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver for = it
- in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but it = also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later)
- then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit.
- in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore

Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have:

- I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have b= een something

If this is the sun micros= ystem sun-1, the leaked sources online suggest that these initially ran a V= 7 port by Unisoft. This switched to a 4.2BSD port maybe before it went to c= ustomers as SunOS 1.0 if other leaked sources can be believed.
If this is the Standford Unix Networked (?) sun, then I don= 9;t know.
=C2=A0
- Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system
- Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it became Unix centered

I believe ve= ry early. It ran first on the VS100, and I believe that those machines at p= roject athena were running Unix, but I'm not sure of the cut over from = Stanford V. Another thread posted the X announcement which was in June 1984= . There was also a pointer to a blog about pictures of the W window system.= None exist, it seems. The windowing system pictured in the glossy marketin= g sheets for the VS100 were for VMS and VMS Windowing System. I'd put m= oney against the first X running on VMS. :)

We had= X10R3 running on Sun 3/50s in our lab, though more often they ran SunView = since it was faster and more familiar to the admins that ran the machines. = This was in 86 or 87 I believe.
=C2=A0
- Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think?
No. It had to be late 1987 or 1988 because I ran that on the S= un 3/60 that the Hydrology department that I worked for ran. I didn't r= un it often, mind you, and the 'generic terminal emulator for any termc= ap entry' terminal was cool, but it was just a notch too weird for a da= ily driver.

Warner
=C2=A0
Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) gr= aphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up to = 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product f= or Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed fo= r S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point.





--000000000000ea6b0905f32d914f-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20242 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 18:14:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 18:14:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79326424B6; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:14:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from fourwinds.com (075-142-133-254.biz.spectrum.com [75.142.133.254]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3EBD424B5 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:14:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 30QIEMVs133149 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:14:22 -0800 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 darkstar.fourwinds.com 30QIEMVs133149 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fourwinds.com; s=default; t=1674756862; bh=LUb+spKfLAcb4bn3Ne0Rgu7pi8Ea5XEr5i/QMstktCQ=; h=From:To:Subject:In-reply-to:References:Date:From; b=TZyvNdgzkejAd2HPNWyQNqO5J7zjgFEMOJzic+9xbdGNK8jf9rctGcDY5xBTIfUkv NW91/hXzd3knbXcHLEFecxPUUbLFpBoyfcHaKqTcV7FY6Al8DnyvtZ0YG3aenO2jEx pwYp2tATQ8xpHJXfx6tsauQ/CYgT0Q7Q4wbYZxvU= Received: from darkstar (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.17.1/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 30QIEMwv133146 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:14:22 -0800 Message-Id: <202301261814.30QIEMwv133146@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" In-reply-to: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> Comments: In-reply-to Paul Ruizendaal message dated "Thu, 26 Jan 2023 16:58:11 +0100." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <133144.1674756862.1@darkstar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:14:22 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Message-ID-Hash: ETLRZS5INWZ76MAA5BW4HG63XS3L66N5 X-Message-ID-Hash: ETLRZS5INWZ76MAA5BW4HG63XS3L66N5 X-MailFrom: jon@fourwinds.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Paul Ruizendaal writes: > As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to = understand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my= preferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. > = > When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: > = > - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. = This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. > - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vect= or graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver = for it > - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but = it also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) > - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. > - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore > = > Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: > = > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must hav= e been something > - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system > - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure= when it became Unix centered > - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? > = > Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er)= graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up= to 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout prod= uct for Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially develo= ped for S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of d= emand for CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point. The timeline for the GLANCE-G is off by a few years. It might have been as early as 1969 but I don't remember when the transition from GLANCE-C (characters only) to GLANCE-G (graphics) occurred. I'm absolutely sure that the G existed in 1972 since I worked on it then. The only UNIX overlap was when the Ring was adapted for the PDP-11 so that Ken could have a GLANCE-G for chess. I have a vague memory of other graphics work at the labs; I remember being in someone's lab that had modified big Crown audio power amps for current feedback to drive deflection coils, but no other details. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20414 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 18:15:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 18:15:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C99424C4; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:15:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (junk.nocrew.org [51.15.56.219]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1440B424BB for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 04:15:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=junk.nocrew.org) by junk.nocrew.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pL6ma-000234-S8; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 18:15:32 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Warner Losh Organization: nocrew References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 18:15:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2023 09:51:59 -0700") Message-ID: <7wo7qlb1rv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lars@nocrew.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on junk.nocrew.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Message-ID-Hash: CAMNQ4CWGJAGKTNHJBYRGTL7JEITD24L X-Message-ID-Hash: CAMNQ4CWGJAGKTNHJBYRGTL7JEITD24L X-MailFrom: lars@nocrew.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Warner Losh wrote: > If this is the Standford Unix Networked (?) sun, then I don't know. Stanford University Network workstation. I have seen some documents about it on stacks.stanford.edu, but I don't remember about the software. In some versions, it's a more of a multi-head remote graphics terminal, so maybe not Unix. > - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure= when it > became Unix centered > > I believe very early. It ran first on the VS100 Note that the VAXstation 100 is not a VAX, and not a standalone computer. It's a 68000-based graphics terminal that attaches to a VAX. The VS100 has some firmware in ROM, and the host uploads additional software. There is such a software blob in X10R3. > There was also a pointer to a blog about pictures of the W window > system. None exist, it seems. I have asked Asante, Reid, and Kent. No luck so far. 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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t123-20020a025481000000b003a4419ba0c2sm709025jaa.139.2023.01.26.11.39.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:39:41 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.300.101.1.3\)) From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <7wo7qlb1rv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:39:30 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <347AA7EF-C028-4C27-806D-B8549BEECD38@iitbombay.org> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <7wo7qlb1rv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> To: Lars Brinkhoff X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.300.101.1.3) Message-ID-Hash: QB4ORMBUAFZGT5T3TP5FJ6E33KWDA4D3 X-Message-ID-Hash: QB4ORMBUAFZGT5T3TP5FJ6E33KWDA4D3 X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: The V sources on bitsavers has a w command. But don't get excited! It seems to be similar to unix's w, a variation on the who command. I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to have pretty much the same model. From https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 The ideal interface must take into account four fundamental principles: (1) The interface to application programs should be independent of particular physical devices or intervening networks. (2) The user should be allowed to perform multiple tasks simultaneously. (3) The command interaction discipline should be consistent and natural. (4) Response to user interaction should be fast. The first principle has led to work in virtual terminals (VTs) and deviceindependent graphics packages, the second to work in window systems, and the third to work in what has recently been called user interface management systems, the most common examples of which are command languages. Without adhering to the fourth principle, however, much of the other work is moot. In a distributed environment, in particular, the supporting network protocols cannot incur inordinate overhead. =46rom concluding remarks: To summarize the major attributes of the VGTS: - Instead of describing how to draw a picture, the application describes what is to be drawn. The user then specifies where the picture should be displayed. - Objects have a hierarchical structure. Hence, the VGTS supports structured display files rather than segmented display files. - The VGTS is portable to a range of relatively high-performance devices. - Applications can be distributed over multiple machines. - A single user can access several different applications simultaneously. - It performs well! VGTS code is in the V system sources at bitsavers. > On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:15 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Warner Losh wrote: >> If this is the Standford Unix Networked (?) sun, then I don't know. >=20 > Stanford University Network workstation. I have seen some documents > about it on stacks.stanford.edu, but I don't remember about the > software. In some versions, it's a more of a multi-head remote = graphics > terminal, so maybe not Unix. >=20 >> - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not = sure when it >> became Unix centered >>=20 >> I believe very early. It ran first on the VS100 >=20 > Note that the VAXstation 100 is not a VAX, and not a standalone > computer. It's a 68000-based graphics terminal that attaches to a = VAX. > The VS100 has some firmware in ROM, and the host uploads additional > software. There is such a software blob in X10R3. >=20 >> There was also a pointer to a blog about pictures of the W window >> system. None exist, it seems. >=20 > I have asked Asante, Reid, and Kent. No luck so far. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6747 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 20:45:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 20:45:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA708424B5; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:45:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com (mail-vs1-f48.google.com [209.85.217.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 861A1424A9 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:45:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id y8so3301840vsq.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:45:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bRWcULlgHRctsawORHg34JgRxjcmcOTPXU/+lfaaAkA=; b=mu/1c1vCXbG9qBEo75SJHZolqnzyHI7iFhgOwDoDHKBRhvU2nzqiMnhqV4QbsBWv0N rv2DFFeA4PGZZ37MHeIsFmMso+QEAeyZlYGvccjOCYktM4yATmBSW9nE0epzZx3cMjLy T22kE6pYZ4vtlTYBUgTg/uJkkbiSKnBB6RqSAS/+ZgqNYbNufEOESj3VxzWeHnGNuCHf yFH9VOObwYUOgBCyp5MLtumtgozTXDi4yxrDShP6ci90NBrhuLkr6XD3uentrXMSG67P BsCTqWYBnjrRpu0BfafzUgUiy01S1f3RQpUII/cPBuAwIARjo+eD97waKkNDk6iiYsde PJfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bRWcULlgHRctsawORHg34JgRxjcmcOTPXU/+lfaaAkA=; b=X0/DpCLoMF9gqWvlik+eSBP3Vq2l5zXG/zYkL2kVBD++2RS514rP+uS8dSPZIJC6rb qQ5FrZHY5XghlAvdJ5bEzv99EWNvq7ztbu4rBsTfr+cUCVHU7A+7rox8e6BJSyyb4xJb 7Npn+LqErT0vYkM/8uY2cvGJQZVpxs3t5bNguvIJwzyp/UdGlkuzsGhoofJQIPQl8tlN JdWqt+QiHWNBkKvZxOe/D/d+9fVGJoLXibI3Spn3nC1nQyUxkOZPndWvizBR5qyaAVZN rlCwimtmwQbRx3qr3+rEXLSSB8QQlB+KkKUgXe7ZC1KotEee4LdrDQd/F8TuO+HCmklT pYVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVqI6bEWEqPErEZbjxmNZdg4oKCcTP2P12DhQuV4aTsfIOqrcoA WwnHk7DzhOWI/KqaTOg3WbesYR9IKvkYL8XxZ8I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+/KchM6PIYgwsW9zHAcQL66CEtfrQ9HCNeU365AjflWtXM16upxucgJ3mB30yc/oto/3DZvp5DBnIL6ZLZ7N4= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c80c:0:b0:3ec:2a27:ade with SMTP id u12-20020a67c80c000000b003ec2a270ademr261976vsk.19.1674765871439; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> From: Rob Pike Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:44:20 +1100 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9667805f330d0ee" Message-ID-Hash: 3CCYAYK3NYV3ZRQB7SORDX6FJZSTZKU7 X-Message-ID-Hash: 3CCYAYK3NYV3ZRQB7SORDX6FJZSTZKU7 X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d9667805f330d0ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was also all the work with the Three Rivers Graphic Wonder on the PDP-11/45 at the University of Toronto Dynamic Graphics Project from 1974 onwards, as well as various film plotters, Versatec, Tennenhouse's frame buffer, and so on. -rob On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 2:58 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to u= nderstand > the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my preferred > time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. > > When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: > > - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. > This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. > - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vecto= r > graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver fo= r > it > - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but i= t > also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) > - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. > - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore > > Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: > > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have > been something > - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system > - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure = when it > became Unix centered > - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? > > Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) > graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up= to 512 x > 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product for > Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed for > S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or > CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point. > > > > > > --000000000000d9667805f330d0ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was also all the work with the Three Rivers Graphic Wonder = on the PDP-11/45 at the University of Toronto Dynamic Graphics Project from= 1974 onwards, as well as various film plotters, Versatec, Tennenhouse'= s frame buffer, and so on.=C2=A0

-rob


On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 2:58= AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl&= gt; wrote:

As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to und= erstand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my pre= ferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985.

When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following:

- around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. Thi= s was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think.
- around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vector = graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver for = it
- in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but it = also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later)
- then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit.
- in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore

Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have:

- I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have b= een something
- Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system
- Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it became Unix centered
- Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think?

Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) gr= aphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up to = 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product f= or Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed fo= r S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point.





--000000000000d9667805f330d0ee-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18183 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 22:18:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 22:18:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098C14001F; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:17:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8C2424CA for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:17:15 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 285f7289-9dc7-11ed-afdd-005056abad63 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.40]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 285f7289-9dc7-11ed-afdd-005056abad63; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=gLg0SGTc8UpOxL9e6ETmF/1vrFo4TzJN/Ss2FV9ckRU=; b=q0Y9PNV/19pqH+kQJl6lFbt7ryZ/yabK9QaHlICpZssa61Tn6SM4JKE6UVt93Lz9cyKSKfzX7GJww Y2BgUeILjMJheSWYOPG52Cx7Av4pU1yeCU++ZMDaTpy/X7opoSYKLMET1HwLIQT3L+4zdu5GkqAiI2 hR0GF51DcbvO2Rzo= X-KPN-MID: 33|YhkxpgYxUnyB3CIuBZGjm82JC04DsmE9FX64n3IkTAD2/pISK20BPOQnFBYL079 V4FMBGo2ZGotpO7j5gyq24WHHc5/sba3QJC5qoN52shs= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|cdvwSgWNQE/ebX+C+nmukGChyL58Vf0+l8L7II9ck3p/t/gIxTsAKj2u8ewaTdd XUTgO0p9p74ksfG1CqkEyOQ== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 28fd16dd-9dc7-11ed-927c-005056ab7584; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:03 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:17:02 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: PKGVHTVSPJHISVWBRY4G4MPO6ON6D66G X-Message-ID-Hash: PKGVHTVSPJHISVWBRY4G4MPO6ON6D66G X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Bakul Shah X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Spam: Yes > On 26 Jan 2023, at 17:29, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >> Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of = cheap(er) graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 = resolution, but up to 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes = that the breakout product for Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to = AutoCAD). Initially developed for S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to = the PC. There was a lot of demand for CAD at a 5K price point that did = not exist at a 50K price point. > Not completely true... 1-4K for BW was possible (expensive) but = available. I tend to believe that systems like E&S could do that. Many = raster systems went to 1K -- again is was about cost. I've forgotten the = resolution of the GDP2 but is was much higher -- it used a rather = expensive HP display. The price of memory and price of the monitor = tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not cheap -- a GDP2 had a = dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things like GT40 and the = similar systems of the time. I meant early micro/home computers. I think John Walker was comparing = the typical late 70=E2=80=99s CAD (drawing) system, i.e a mini computer, = a few graphics terminals and CAD software versus Interact running on a = S-100 system with a high end graphics card, a digitiser board and a = terminal. See for instance here: https://www.3dcadworld.com/autocads-ancestor/ > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must = have been something > Again - W was the windowing system for the Sun board, running on the V = kernel. It was original envisioned as a very smart terminal to bigger = systems. Remember it did not have an MMU to start with. Andy added and = MMU and then eventually changed it to a 68010. VLSI Tech was born and = eventual became Sun Micro Systems but that was a few years later. I = have to believe W as moved to UNIX on the SUN Terminal and that would = have been what Chris Kent and folks started with for the microVax - but = I do not know for sure. > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 09:51:59 -0700 > From: Warner Losh >=20 >> - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must = have been something >=20 > If this is the sun microsystem sun-1, the leaked sources online = suggest that these initially ran a V7 port by Unisoft. This switched to = a 4.2BSD port maybe before it went to customers as SunOS 1.0 if other = leaked sources can be believed. I never really distinguished between the Stanford "SUN" and the Sun = Microsystems "Sun-1=E2=80=9D, oops. Taking Clem=E2=80=99s comment into = account I could see that the SUN ran the V kernel and the W graphics = system, and that the Sun-1 was using an early form of X. > Bakul Shah bakul at iitbombay.org=20 > Fri Jan 27 05:39:30 AEST 2023 >=20 > I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to = have > pretty much the same model. > =46rom https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 That is an interesting thought and paper. The paper says: "As noted in Section 3, the VGTS is only one component of the user = interface software. The other components are the view manager, the exec = server, and the executives. Together, the view manager and exec server = constitute the user interface management.=E2=80=9D In this context an =E2=80=9Cexecutive=E2=80=9D seems to be similar to a = shell, the exec server appears to manage client connections and the view = manager seems to be similar to a window manager in X. Maybe this whole = was (later?) referred to as =E2=80=9CW=E2=80=9D? This was the post announcing X: From: rws@mit-bold (Robert W. Scheifler) To: window@athena Subject: window system X Date: 19 Jun 1984 0907-EDT (Tuesday) I've spent the last couple weeks writing a window system for the VS100. I stole a fair amount of code from W, surrounded it with an asynchronous rather than a synchronous interface, and called it X. Overall performance appears to be about twice that of W. The code seems fairly solid at this point, although there are still some deficiencies to be fixed up.=20 We at LCS have stopped using W, and are now actively building applications on X. Anyone else using W should seriously consider switching. This is not the ultimate window system, but I believe it is a good starting point for experimentation. Right at the moment there is a CLU (and an Argus) interface to X; a C interface is in the works. The three existing applications are a text editor (TED), an Argus I/O interface, and a primitive window manager. There is no documentation yet; anyone crazy enough to volunteer? I may get around to it eventually.=20 Anyone interested in seeing a demo can drop by NE43-531, although you may want to call 3-1945 first. Anyone who wants the code can come by with a tape. Anyone interested in hacking deficiencies, feel free to get in touch. 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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k10-20020a02334a000000b003a3dd1c7be7sm853837jak.128.2023.01.26.14.45.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:45:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.300.101.1.3\)) From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:45:06 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> To: Paul Ruizendaal X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.300.101.1.3) Message-ID-Hash: ENF5OXB37DKZUWXAR4WRWN7XBQALLLGK X-Message-ID-Hash: ENF5OXB37DKZUWXAR4WRWN7XBQALLLGK X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Jan 26, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Bakul Shah bakul at iitbombay.org=20 >> Fri Jan 27 05:39:30 AEST 2023 >>=20 >> I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to = have >> pretty much the same model. >> =46rom https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 >=20 >=20 > That is an interesting thought and paper. >=20 > The paper says: >=20 > "As noted in Section 3, the VGTS is only one component of the user = interface software. The other components are the view manager, the exec = server, and the executives. Together, the view manager and exec server = constitute the user interface management.=E2=80=9D >=20 > In this context an =E2=80=9Cexecutive=E2=80=9D seems to be similar to = a shell, the exec server appears to manage client connections and the = view manager seems to be similar to a window manager in X. Maybe this = whole was (later?) referred to as =E2=80=9CW=E2=80=9D? For the curious the sources are available at = http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Stanford/VSystem_1983.zip It just seems weird that a) for a research OS such as V there were more than one such effort but b) there are no papers about W or any mention of it in V related papers. c) there is source code for VGTS as well as at least one paper about it. d) VGTS seems to have had similar goals as X windows. e) there seemed to be multiple applications written using VGTS. I didn't spend much time searching so may have missed things. I have asked a friend who had Cheriton as research advisor in '80s but most likely it won't yield anything. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2154 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 00:20:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 00:20:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A21424CD; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:20:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.168]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E3DC424C9 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:20:09 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 5452b61c-9dd8-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 5452b61c-9dd8-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=vwLfOtWIMIlPYIa76zsyqdsu9q1zLCsqgWFW9TywCwA=; b=cad77gC0mFwhylZ7JJJF4FVEzsTYJLie5SnraMME0gjYlhnVlENw/3t63ZcPooxWGx1Us9sC2krpS ZuLP1pHrpIUEOzW7OQvBz/w1nxoLJf7FfPhogQTppKhXrovgUKxqUf+aZMcSNTciObjDeZo05k/fUm wp2fj4p5ve4tWXqQ= X-KPN-MID: 33|019O8vAdGQBpYCOG78rn5TGyPQptzEDnFo4CGZPp0k62ABnP87uUJAWNIgUXB8G BLtmpjkY8ODvJlr08+jh0+cH0mT9asYEdnhHE8GcTmso= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|/7FdZk86As5eFoscrK+dLtPI6M/bdSUO3qY/G9HKc3fMMuY5DDMHD3vqPStba8Z bcVc3fswX4nW6s66lX+X+3w== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 5588f454-9dd8-11ed-ae07-005056ab1411; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:59 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:58 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: JUTFO7Y5DFFJUVB5M3BFSWC6MEEZNZU2 X-Message-ID-Hash: JUTFO7Y5DFFJUVB5M3BFSWC6MEEZNZU2 X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Bakul Shah X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 26 Jan 2023, at 23:45, Bakul Shah wrote: >=20 > On Jan 26, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Bakul Shah bakul at iitbombay.org=20 >>> Fri Jan 27 05:39:30 AEST 2023 >>>=20 >>> I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to = have >>> pretty much the same model. >>> =46rom https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 And the answer is =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D: =46rom = https://apps.hci.rwth-aachen.de/borchers-old/cs377a/materials/p79-scheifle= r.pdf : "The name X derives from the lineage of the system. At Stanford = University, Paul Asente and Brian Reid had begun work on the W window = system [3] as an alternative to VGTS [13, 22] for the V system [5]. Both = VGTS and W allow network-transparent access to the display, using the = synchronous V communication mechanism. Both systems provide =E2=80=9Ctext=E2= =80=9D windows for ASCII terminal emulation. VGTS provides graphics = windows driven by fairly high-level object definitions from a structured = display file; W provides graphics windows based on a simple display-list = mechanism, with limited functionality. We acquired a UNIX- based version = of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous communication over TCP [24] = produced by Asente and Chris Kent at Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research = Laboratory. =46rom just a few days of experimentation, it was clear that = a network- transparent hierarchical window system was desirable, but = that restricting the system to any fixed set of application-specific = modes was completely inadequate. It was also clear that, although = synchronous communication was perhaps acceptable in the V system (owing = to very fast networking primitives), it was completely inadequate in = most other operating environments. X is our =E2=80=9Creaction=E2=80=9D = to W.=E2=80=9D The reference [3] is "ASENTE, P. W reference manual. Internal document, = Dept. Computer Science, Stanford Univ., Calif., 1984.=E2=80=9D The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the = 4.3BSD distribution tapes: "The use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has = incorporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers are = following suit. With the appearance of such products and the release of = complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no = longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D And I was wrong with: > I never really distinguished between the Stanford "SUN" and the Sun = Microsystems "Sun-1=E2=80=9D, oops. Taking Clem=E2=80=99s comment into = account I could see that the SUN ran the V kernel and the W graphics = system, and that the Sun-1 was using an early form of X. Whilst the part about SUN may be correct, the Sun-1 was apparently using = MGR and SunWindows/SunView -- at least according to the interesting blog = post here (discussed on TUHS a few months ago): = https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/10/if-one-guis-not-enough-for-your-sparc.= html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27719 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 10:59:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 10:59:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E4442515; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:59:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (junk.nocrew.org [51.15.56.219]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92B1242512 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:59:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=junk.nocrew.org) by junk.nocrew.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pLMSE-0006WQ-8E; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:59:34 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Warner Losh Organization: nocrew References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <7wo7qlb1rv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:59:34 +0000 In-Reply-To: <7wo7qlb1rv.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2023 18:15:32 +0000") Message-ID: <7w4jscb5ux.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lars@nocrew.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on junk.nocrew.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Message-ID-Hash: BNBCN5WWOMYHOJHIWWWHEPYNHKUR57KO X-Message-ID-Hash: BNBCN5WWOMYHOJHIWWWHEPYNHKUR57KO X-MailFrom: lars@nocrew.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > Stanford University Network workstation. I have seen some documents > about it on stacks.stanford.edu, but I don't remember about the > software. In some versions, it's a more of a multi-head remote graphics > terminal, so maybe not Unix. In the 1980 document, it's described as a single 68000 serving up to 16 seats. "only the basic Pup Telnet protocols need be implemented on the workstation's MC68OOO processor. The SUN terminals could then be programmed to emulate currently available terminals, such as Datamedias, Telerays, Tektronix 4014 graphics terminals, or III displays." https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:gg867qx3134/gg867qx3134.pdf But by 1982 it looks much like a classic workstation. "The SUN Memory Management Unit has been designed to support a multitasking operating system such as Bell Lab=E2=80=99s UNIX." http://i.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/csl/tr/82/229/CSL-TR-82-229.pdf From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30652 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BA042550; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:16:45 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1674839805; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-owner:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=s53cMV6t7kp1XxtYTBykELSQq0OtGbjck2Cz4jMLajk=; b=yDuoGenELMid7/SUW66oOSH8lPS0rJH4RVMJXmlumE5azfrZn5oMNwHEZjER7lXJDoMtU2 aAWBKB3+ssi3igXbUDhtk/CL77BU0vk7Zs+c+ubi7Zia4BVeariDRUUeGBaOqizLAqGUD2 46uj2tdU3WSJFmFiUgYggJk162NywFg= Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3246D4254F for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:16:27 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 3e681cce-9e66-11ed-a286-005056ab378f Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 3e681cce-9e66-11ed-a286-005056ab378f; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:15:48 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=message-id:to:date:subject:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=s53cMV6t7kp1XxtYTBykELSQq0OtGbjck2Cz4jMLajk=; b=Pw5tltwfwMZlfI0a90quoE/sTpdEyqmoXMI7jhKpwy/3uVECfPfcQMtdVQw2G3v7rxVQ8+md+YlmV 8YFVrOy/fhm2ooiyZ61Q/L+GpK2bmjh9cTkAxV2hnWGlI7C/Au8idyvJZXJ/R8RnzEfE+o8MaAMp43 W9x4hWnYdl8lrJO4= X-KPN-MID: 33|S+0rrIUtbvcxNDwTDgV8j+8/3fT43buDQQGgfEVy4E8NAzWhitqvLoi6mDottwg 6NaxqJTxRcAXuiABUm6UN3A== X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|QHG4PxhvM+EjtsBq6zm8LrmsdyOFDj0ymkRzpa/wXKdnOhhLAfK6/bC5tuyGA5l yFRcOMImALOEyk33kxceajg== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from mba1.fritz.box (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 4dfec015-9e66-11ed-ae07-005056ab1411; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:16:15 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_25EC9E7E-FC84-48F0-A006-958F97B7399C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\)) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:16:14 +0100 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7) Message-ID-Hash: Y7XASVVTMNCPW27EXRRMW2WVDPILZRGK X-Message-ID-Hash: Y7XASVVTMNCPW27EXRRMW2WVDPILZRGK X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS Reply-To: Paul Ruizendaal --Apple-Mail=_25EC9E7E-FC84-48F0-A006-958F97B7399C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jan 27, 2023, at 1:19 AM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >=20 > The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the = 4.3BSD distribution tapes: >=20 > "The use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital = has incorporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers = are following suit. With the appearance of such products and the release = of complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is = no longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D >=20 This X is not on the TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the CSRG disks. It = turns out that there is a directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80=9D that is = not included there. It is here: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/ = The version of X included with 4.3BSD was X10. I assume this is the = oldest surviving X Window source code. Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has the source = code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presumably lost? --Apple-Mail=_25EC9E7E-FC84-48F0-A006-958F97B7399C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Jan 27, 2023, at 1:19 AM, Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> = wrote:

The version = of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the 4.3BSD = distribution tapes:

"The use of X has grown = far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has incorporated X into a = commercial product, and other manufacturers are following suit. With the = appearance of such products and the release of complete X sources on the = Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no longer feasible to track = all X use and development.=E2=80=9D


This X is = not on the TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the CSRG disks. It turns out = that there is a directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80=9D that is not included = there. It is here:

The version of X included with 4.3BSD was X10. I = assume this is the oldest surviving X Window source code.

Of course the source code for the Blit has = survived, as has the source code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows = and NeWS is presumably lost?



= --Apple-Mail=_25EC9E7E-FC84-48F0-A006-958F97B7399C-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1141 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:38:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:38:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8571642559; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:37:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f41.google.com (mail-ej1-f41.google.com [209.85.218.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A18342558 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:37:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f41.google.com with SMTP id v6so15678819ejg.6 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:37:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uEkdJi56i94D2O8iv+ht+TSWM2NSjyD5NL1AhppfzUI=; b=GW1TKknufNpl3+xXvU8WGjSzhUy4iZEkIwgIHYk+9WuZYheCmYiYV+UsKqb7XqZAWc +eW7SNsZRoy2+hWW4oyq9emlBS//WOTLT11BDi/SR/SYIKQQPn31HLymmiN6OUyOo/Eh lJ6aDLk2ci5MxXRVtGg1AKLMkgye4DvnlCtvuY3peO8aIwNs7EGVs1d7vjBtRrvh1nGA uxnIW/0lNpHe0M7NHqu1RmEkyIcLsC6V6lsEuqKzo6oDIpvYdUNushOquP2sLzM2Ye/Q a3zqcTGog9Jz5bpFMXgKH/RnsAPxiA15Md+Ri/wgJthtlaNH/VXN4OEVfeWzOR4GXWcj QNWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=uEkdJi56i94D2O8iv+ht+TSWM2NSjyD5NL1AhppfzUI=; b=aWjD7dago9SnnF3+4/VVFI7JdO9+nl03DLkJX1SQ6T6F0tE1W5gMJSZdAu0H/TuGPO m/UpI532BBaxRmrVVlXRf42qQpnpzpaOudm+/OkeycqtOGuVWK6vAMEzdbKwM8C8KpyC 00jBuN8xP4S+o7ZnH0Vvg8pJustyIwTV6gQvNmfCsbjkpwPPBBvWy+ZVLwRlFPh0Kzja Ns2LMh/Z5HWMeyBcPfuopXzMdIjoopuHHKkgwtcgxir5kYIfxgzEJJBzf9ATbN9gwcUE 6JtUjpsl2L7q4OYUPxdAhQvkZv957pBhImOaL339uDd1Y3YHEu/cKkARDWZP25uc6uyT Lgrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpNzQTkblZtUrdB3GPTU277MxESSQqjQeKir7jkdoalzL+BT6rB Bqk+g30yV9m5hcB/sfBzFKHfwfmtZV6xBkmv4yp/7s+ptUhKHGDX X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtRSE6KXLI78Ge05JKu4uZobgRxaEwzSnK0bo8B5VpZxqgZXKDFD9IU5eoXf31oVS3uc+WmnXGeChMfRQFQ9rY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:a2c6:b0:85f:2781:508a with SMTP id re6-20020a170907a2c600b0085f2781508amr6514214ejc.36.1674840997479; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:36:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:36:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b5da7d05f3424e51" Message-ID-Hash: LCHN3XYA4ZFYMCT423TBSWQTBQLA7PSL X-Message-ID-Hash: LCHN3XYA4ZFYMCT423TBSWQTBQLA7PSL X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000b5da7d05f3424e51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:16 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote: > > On Jan 27, 2023, at 1:19 AM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the 4.3BSD > distribution tapes: > > "The use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has > incorporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers are > following suit. With the appearance of such products and the release of > complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no > longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D > > > This X is not on the TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the CSRG disks. It > turns out that there is a directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80=9D that is not= included there. > It is here: > > http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/ > > The version of X included with 4.3BSD was X10. I assume this is the oldes= t > surviving X Window source code. > There's X10R3 and X10R4 at https://www.x.org/archive/X10R3/ and https://www.x.org/archive/X10R4/. On the FTP site, there's sym links for R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R6.1, R6.3, R6.4, R6.5.1, R6.6 and R6.8 in the pub directory as well, but they are dead links and correspond to the X11 releases that are also there, not X1, etc. The X10R3 is from Feb 2, 1986. X10R4 is from December 2, 1986. The retro11.de files are from June 1986, so are no later than X10R4, and most likely either X10R3 or an internal snapshot (I've not downloaded them both to run a diff to see which). Google searches for X9, X8, etc aren't at all helpful. Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has the source code > of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presumably lost? > When I was a Solbroune, we started the OI toolkit with pdb, swm, uib, etc because Sun refused to license the source code to SunView. Although I had easy access to SunOS (which I wish I'd saved a copy of now), the SunView code was never in the building. It was relatively easy to get SunOS sources for a fee, but much harder for SunView. So I'm less than completely hopeful here. And NeWS was a fringe thing with a significantly shorter product life, so I'm even less hopeful there. Warner --000000000000b5da7d05f3424e51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:16 AM Paul= Ruizendaal via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org= > wrote:

On Jan 27, 2023, at 1:19 AM, Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the 4.3BSD = distribution tapes:

"The use of X has grown far beyond anything= we had imagined. Digital has incorporated X into a commercial product, and= other manufacturers are following suit. With the appearance of such produc= ts and the release of complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribut= ion tapes, it is no longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2= =80=9D


This X is not on the = TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the CSRG disks. It turns out that there is a= directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80=9D that is not included there. It is here= :



There's X10R3 and X10R4 at=C2=A0https://www.x.org/archive/X10R3/ and= =C2=A0https://www.x.org/archiv= e/X10R4/. On the FTP site, there's sym links for R1, R2, R3, R4, R5= , R6, R6.1, R6.3, R6.4, R6.5.1, R6.6 and R6.8 in the pub directory as well,= but they are dead links and correspond to the X11 releases that are also t= here, not X1, etc.

The X10R3 is from Feb 2, 1986. = X10R4 is from December 2, 1986. The retro11.d= e files are from June 1986, so
are no later than X10R4, and m= ost likely either X10R3 or an internal snapshot (I've not downloaded th= em both
to run a diff to see which).

Goo= gle searches for X9, X8, etc aren't at all helpful.

Of course the source code for the Blit has survived,= as has the source code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is = presumably lost?

When I was a S= olbroune, we started the OI toolkit with pdb, swm, uib, etc because Sun ref= used to license the source code to SunView. Although I had easy access to S= unOS (which I wish I'd saved a copy of now), the SunView code was never= in the building. It was relatively easy to get SunOS sources for a fee, bu= t much harder for SunView. So I'm less than completely hopeful here. An= d NeWS was a fringe thing with a significantly shorter product life, so I&#= 39;m even less hopeful there.

Warner
--000000000000b5da7d05f3424e51-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1263 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:39:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:39:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB2D4255E; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:39:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f45.google.com (mail-ej1-f45.google.com [209.85.218.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F1294255D for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:39:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f45.google.com with SMTP id rl14so15741205ejb.2 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:39:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bkelHkwkoQEMkq9yBW8yFURn+HyWy/B2cIOUzBLA6YM=; b=VTMlWNb7vRIEk65ZzbBj6l92/2T50++Y5U1LVAV6oEwGsV3tsuMyQZNSIHhb6vDez4 C2M7s3kaSPT6xUeCt59tCIwAcke9XdZHjv5j9YyhLlvbSJIju06/B4wEDeuZyrB7+/9d fiEnk7IVlY/saH1Y0G+ZrfDDNWE7zeWNNNZrdZxFQIZ6eh/JhMvD4+XSB24ChPatagms 2LD4IBO4+Y5eEGY5qvhxVP6Og0PSONknsAzh9bzS9Cn1+NCxGHSb5hpvyfslUrzjtrdK dITsqrl97kmFGONzD7p41mvB8KdOzr3b4tXkurZWYPb1Qz4NfvoNcu/1KrMtF5gLrUiO EkKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bkelHkwkoQEMkq9yBW8yFURn+HyWy/B2cIOUzBLA6YM=; b=wY0+ljPPeyOsABqGhq2Csg7OuJm1NrO/x5GHCFgxv3uXNFkseYnKQSrnix/EjunUHM eZpXcyDDWCem0DuRuyarGDy9DtCQZdPsQoZsCP4LtT4G3aeMKOQY1sji6XctOQ/HOnFq DNzdpm/UFzvHMwkHpG4f8AhjPoLK8/zyiEU86OThHN42Nj4E0FI55ykLwJwdHi9RFaXG ki/BdNlYWGFFKRkUYJiHr40eyXtosgxyCya8/82BaqiiJqJe9Jutgx8QYBaJjJBINhOU xkD+NQ0ccqd/HSWO9n4t/h9bh28FdLv5C1aDxEai6UuqP3yn4KZ7pM0ik20gvI3MSf7P gtiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krO6axrgswi3qnUI+GZc6VK19vfQuXh45VqS9Ej+7UGDApt5CEB J0ZgcXEUNkLLh6EySyax56TQu1hPf4Cu2F+CxLMMDTNbFYRB8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXv0icxcicSeWXYWqnnArGDtly0hOwwr/ViVbdYJxBmYrBx+K53DAODWfBFL2iLornH5MGeozw+D6H+g4FOo5LA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7754:b0:86f:2cc2:7028 with SMTP id o20-20020a170906775400b0086f2cc27028mr5275238ejn.133.1674841083575; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:38:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d78ebb05f3425390" Message-ID-Hash: 6YUY26O4XGII3BB4LR3DLCZ5YVDWUZ5W X-Message-ID-Hash: 6YUY26O4XGII3BB4LR3DLCZ5YVDWUZ5W X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d78ebb05f3425390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:36 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:16 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS > wrote: > >> >> On Jan 27, 2023, at 1:19 AM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >> >> The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the 4.3BS= D >> distribution tapes: >> >> "The use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has >> incorporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers are >> following suit. With the appearance of such products and the release of >> complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no >> longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> This X is not on the TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the CSRG disks. It >> turns out that there is a directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80=9D that is no= t included there. >> It is here: >> >> http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/ >> >> The version of X included with 4.3BSD was X10. I assume this is the >> oldest surviving X Window source code. >> > > There's X10R3 and X10R4 at https://www.x.org/archive/X10R3/ and > https://www.x.org/archive/X10R4/. On the FTP site, there's sym links for > R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R6.1, R6.3, R6.4, R6.5.1, R6.6 and R6.8 in the pu= b > directory as well, but they are dead links and correspond to the X11 > releases that are also there, not X1, etc. > > The X10R3 is from Feb 2, 1986. X10R4 is from December 2, 1986. The > retro11.de files are from June 1986, so > are no later than X10R4, and most likely either X10R3 or an internal > snapshot (I've not downloaded them both > to run a diff to see which). > > Google searches for X9, X8, etc aren't at all helpful. > Also interesting to note is that X10 had clu bindings in the CLUlib directory... > Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has the source >> code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presumably lost? >> > > When I was a Solbroune, we started the OI toolkit with pdb, swm, uib, etc > because Sun refused to license the source code to SunView. Although I had > easy access to SunOS (which I wish I'd saved a copy of now), the SunView > code was never in the building. It was relatively easy to get SunOS sourc= es > for a fee, but much harder for SunView. So I'm less than completely hopef= ul > here. And NeWS was a fringe thing with a significantly shorter product > life, so I'm even less hopeful there. > > Warner > --000000000000d78ebb05f3425390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:36 AM Warn= er Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:=


On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:16 AM Paul Ruizendaal via= TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org<= /a>> wrote:
<= div>

The version of X discussed in the= paper was apparently part of the 4.3BSD distribution tapes:

"T= he use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has inco= rporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers are following= suit. With the appearance of such products and the release of complete X s= ources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no longer feasibl= e to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D


This X is not on the TUHS Unix tree website, nor on the = CSRG disks. It turns out that there is a directory =E2=80=9Csrc/new=E2=80= =9D that is not included there. It is here:


The v= ersion of X included with 4.3BSD was X10. I assume this is the oldest survi= ving X Window source code.

Ther= e's X10R3 and X10R4 at=C2=A0https://www.x.org/archive/X10R3/ and=C2=A0https://www.x.org/a= rchive/X10R4/. On the FTP site, there's sym links for R1, R2, R3, R= 4, R5, R6, R6.1, R6.3, R6.4, R6.5.1, R6.6 and R6.8 in the pub directory as = well, but they are dead links and correspond to the X11 releases that are a= lso there, not X1, etc.

The X10R3 is from Feb 2, 1= 986. X10R4 is from December 2, 1986. The retro11.de files are from June 1986, so
are no = later than X10R4, and most likely either X10R3 or an internal snapshot (I&#= 39;ve not downloaded them both
to run a diff to see which).
=

Google searches for X9, X8, etc aren't at all helpf= ul.

Also interesting to n= ote is that X10 had clu bindings in the CLUlib=C2=A0directory...
= =C2=A0
Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has= the source code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presuma= bly lost?

When I was a Solbroun= e, we started the OI toolkit with pdb, swm, uib, etc because Sun refused to= license the source code to SunView. Although I had easy access to SunOS (w= hich I wish I'd saved a copy of now), the SunView code was never in the= building. It was relatively easy to get SunOS sources for a fee, but much = harder for SunView. So I'm less than completely hopeful here. And NeWS = was a fringe thing with a significantly shorter product life, so I'm ev= en less hopeful there.

Warner
--000000000000d78ebb05f3425390-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2974256E; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:44:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-f179.google.com (mail-yb1-f179.google.com [209.85.219.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0E334256B for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:44:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-f179.google.com with SMTP id d132so6905750ybb.5 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:44:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a29DNJIaomg3k47puXsHPJnic5FJu4Z01jLDgv4Qzx4=; b=P93z7NvNz2GLnbZVyiXdCSboiDq1SZ1wGUzEhTfMNEpK8QANuW30hmLDrMq+1DPHD2 fAARSELJcsDj6vr1WRNzJwMWyIzMad7Od5uCgWvXdpNIHFPHN1ewpzIY5OMXHAhqQXL1 6L0h4ysrQHyLv0QqGJFwRMjtg5i0EBUMW3Q4QIWOzqyEVOSx9FjcvsL4tKHAM1Tuqw2c 8msZWpgMmgNThbmow8qBuIFpOwDQ1kZ8pa/FDQzMdo3jXigXTbAlGqDUXe4I0G37kTFn Au2lknWRHaaGUf5S4ELn88u2/Tpbg1dnrQbiR1kRKKlRoEnm9aCSeGJ1pB4nNBYkis06 1QfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=a29DNJIaomg3k47puXsHPJnic5FJu4Z01jLDgv4Qzx4=; b=fDhTRRM3SVSNZtrgt7lBpqA7sBuI/t0ihUPArXyAPO3/oNMe9qCPs9NJIF7DhJR369 SUcG+0MZN3Gk2ryW7nL5pWBe2kGOjXmtNnvT6T+gSrJDFcZJM2H1+HV6O/d0Nx6H79Qk YI0A88GHw3milfA92QsGvTF2Uoauo1GYe9RisS8dy8A1Anbpkqa9kqugS+INmM++s5TL NxbHsRFrBtD4TJbrQ+PvZrCOQ4j9Lm03jP0mav1pYNWBH8htb/A7fMTx+kb7THcknSiK aEb8oR/0s0meRr8nitFCJehwGpmlR/K0Ab1oQA/JFQISPDzMBpcbN+LoPPqkFlw2EftD xhsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUQEpZdMB8RcPmo5aHyU6F+RCqnNWUC7lgZmQLVXHs3S8Pcwb24 a5wozieu0S7HgQB5qWvy0Uq61V3q6MQ8qEnLl/PMTHou X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8qwbRPFHCjFYsuODQDDV/BMmdN3elWgFkRsr70RSJd9iw0POIFsAmdwD8CAhdyUe964xsiw76tWT9+eF3OZgU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c546:0:b0:80b:83b0:c973 with SMTP id v67-20020a25c546000000b0080b83b0c973mr997920ybe.444.1674841390236; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:43:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:7010:4e0c:b0:320:aad4:e455 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:43:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> From: josh Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:43:09 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ec7de05f34266f9" Message-ID-Hash: SQUYAAIMT5MBEALV73ZHUBROORPUNEJW X-Message-ID-Hash: SQUYAAIMT5MBEALV73ZHUBROORPUNEJW X-MailFrom: joshnatis0@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001ec7de05f34266f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Friday, January 27, 2023, Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote: > > Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has the source > code of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presumably lost? > Arnold Robbins linked to this repository in a previous thread, it seems to have some NeWS-related source: https://github.com/IanDarwin/OpenLookCDROM --0000000000001ec7de05f34266f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, January 27, 2023, Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

Of course the source code for the Blit has survived, as has the source c= ode of MGR. The source code for Sunwindows and NeWS is presumably lost?

Arnold Robbins linked to this repo= sitory in a previous thread, it seems to have some NeWS-related source:

--0000000000001ec7de05f34266f9-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2315 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:46:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:46:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E1E42579; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:46:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com (mail-pj1-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3A6242576 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:46:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id m11so5295221pji.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:46:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=omNMKZbKENkvAWk8e1txkOip6skSXln1gjuU+VAUwGQ=; b=TsN+nxgbQfANsp5W8062wg/76TyPFyibNKcdXPvfwi/L8s2esixs+QX2ww8dgS24XF 3mRXWxJB2k5yDEhJ020jWEC1Z1drI09BRe8kT+U1oHAj8hJpeIa7kVxWEbO5q45oKYid prcUy+ZyXoEswikLOzbR8MY1A2lHxtTl2Ay40ayWkev+UeV2c3eZjQqFR7ABq7Fb7mqB JfB1b4KyOwHDJN6TmPpNxrFe4YIWTYXNvVcYOe+bPifjwwTRjbpy8h4BKYajQLQzpWfV lFMOat8x1ChZwwb6JRdwMKp9xIvHyjwIekGL1MxK6cr+mpTLK3Iq8gMnKGVz/eyP4qmX ttOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=omNMKZbKENkvAWk8e1txkOip6skSXln1gjuU+VAUwGQ=; b=femwpK56vaImfJyFiD1NBw64RlsGG3/Ytj6vYctUHxRuZVkqAu2bys8i9QN1+HYNeM JemFjTKeybK5IM2LFjotNxRocVv9NfYgtYaHw2GQn13NaGazKbKz5MlU+xl236eOUvpL pmm3eO/1fMKOadJmk4uzH0UJYC5T1aUUvr385ZSD7ffNueGgE7D4UQyBooEQnFby0mLt bZ2Y/aNwpeRdVE41pPDUAzY8+GXIbEtBAhnTD+JViSlPXVkp/7GYzccw8LBi7TZUtJs6 BoaQwSsKxv60nJH8G+fBHnY8Ckp1xW+d3UivHaXqzsuY3YXhjRGfw+JAdYnRL8dUvh3J eGEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWhwBru7lYZy8pHexKPyh0Lrs6w1Dt8Pt5wRfsfTOmx8HQeA1sk Mlu4Lf6TnQDnUfb2OrAmftcQBhpXni+ci8ShjXE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9bDAva19c7vQSrr/jr2OhHYwebp+8OvuUNiL5qe7rHOy3oq2Yt0SfqPe6rtxjk4qYQM2xrf3kkySfkXheAs/Y= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2383:b0:22c:4d5:38be with SMTP id mr3-20020a17090b238300b0022c04d538bemr2174535pjb.42.1674841524173; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:45:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Rich Salz Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:45:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a826f05f3426e79" Message-ID-Hash: PU2PKFE3QB242MVZFP3RWL64BJARUJOL X-Message-ID-Hash: PU2PKFE3QB242MVZFP3RWL64BJARUJOL X-MailFrom: rich.salz@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001a826f05f3426e79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Also interesting to note is that X10 had clu bindings in the CLUlib directory... I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in; the notice talks about CLU bindings exist and C coming soon. The app-side seems reasonable, but what was the display engine written in? (I took the CLU class around 1980.) > --0000000000001a826f05f3426e79 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Also interesting to note = is that X10 had clu bindings in the CLUlib=C2=A0directory...

=
I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written i= n; the notice talks about CLU bindings exist and C coming soon. The app-sid= e seems reasonable, but what was the display engine written in?=C2=A0 (I to= ok the CLU class around 1980.)
--0000000000001a826f05f3426e79-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3546 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 17:55:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 17:55:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AB04258A; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:55:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f43.google.com (mail-ej1-f43.google.com [209.85.218.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B79F542584 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 03:55:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f43.google.com with SMTP id ud5so15815995ejc.4 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:55:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ZYTyw6ERTT3W09NwJLzNfTlpYKC8kKCIo6rGOnD9c5I=; b=iIMTdAgax40NbDLoQIfJDVC0qt68ENXs+XXvQgLGcxtayXNj3AL5dowl/1PlWQFiUo XMdflXyIJMOHgYZtswHJ3mQKxFK0xIrgN+nKi6nzEJI9evPDLos2ZmwHhn5TYPwm4jM5 MW+p0SlPIukDg6vW0/lLTI9HBRBrTN9dU6wR9en+oL4jnkJHnq+DhsxMu9QlpPM5Dllk NioQAJ29TCuKI0N5TXK/bS+FejaCbWpmSOlEN33oNsNUi6KKJ/iEwJ1hMnaHs0MzXqj9 N6U6wRcWWR2gkpiv3FTPTNn4DJjqq1BV2pWJRCaQbj3arTB4V7HFUWAvnWArS4q+NCJe WLvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ZYTyw6ERTT3W09NwJLzNfTlpYKC8kKCIo6rGOnD9c5I=; b=OCuaj9MjYIuosmypdZ5VY0k6xdQIpxtu9JNhr8WyUQS/GauyJTmxnwbJNmQXmHe/Mb HLyLwjEsDre01x9YQWiq3L5QZAdxUBQKEdxp0RzTP9exFsSH9auo+hG6+YB7RmSFqeFx T2FKMJYmeeNAkIOR0Md1XQ+dZRPaa2RnJ/5K4nKCTbUZt3RGoc5yUG1gOCKrzlO6a3Oc 2cT1uRqOrXH3lyji3EKYQCOIQ7OsdL3EPhNcazgBtTZz2ZoyU89AVC6QETJionG5IUjo WMSnrYLz9h8wn7ufP7UAi9b4eyvmcqh8sbCA3/A9AHbpRcnNuaHVhJITe58+kkouLmHX KJhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kovMPdZl6xvKhfOlMmFXzFkBHQ+A0jGPfkkVMhy8cPh4p7JlqWW /PdglTwaxIIrAOStmr7OQFuA0u29HoK+61bGA3e38A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuaOEqBcqnnShGpjq+YLXfOH6pWxJjYopVXQw9BhE4KM6VLRg25hgOY/Ar+oh2C3HBr4daLdUK3Mk6jpOTmKHM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2085:b0:86a:71cd:ba6b with SMTP id pv5-20020a170907208500b0086a71cdba6bmr7141468ejb.306.1674842084300; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:54:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:54:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rich Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d702105f3428f09" Message-ID-Hash: LO3VETT7ANZJRZFQ6SS3NZQQ4T3HQGFF X-Message-ID-Hash: LO3VETT7ANZJRZFQ6SS3NZQQ4T3HQGFF X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007d702105f3428f09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:45 AM Rich Salz wrote: > > > Also interesting to note is that X10 had clu bindings in the > CLUlib directory... > > I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in; the notice > talks about CLU bindings exist and C coming soon. The app-side seems > reasonable, but what was the display engine written in? (I took the CLU > class around 1980.) > I wrote ~500-1000 lines of CLU in a computer language survey course in 1986... Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this question... Warner --0000000000007d702105f3428f09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 10:45 AM Rich= Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

> Also interesting to note is that= X10 had clu bindings in the CLUlib=C2=A0directory...

<= div>I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in; the = notice talks about CLU bindings exist and C coming soon. The app-side seems= reasonable, but what was the display engine written in?=C2=A0 (I took the = CLU class around 1980.)
=
I wrote=C2=A0 ~500-1000 lines of CLU in a computer language = survey course in 1986...

Without the earlier versi= ons' source, it's hard to answer this question...

Warner
--0000000000007d702105f3428f09-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27698 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2023 09:14:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2023 09:14:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E835C42538; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 19:14:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (junk.nocrew.org [51.15.56.219]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B42494245F for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 19:14:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=junk.nocrew.org) by junk.nocrew.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pLhHi-0002TK-3n; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:14:06 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Warner Losh Organization: nocrew References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:14:06 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:54:33 -0700") Message-ID: <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lars@nocrew.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on junk.nocrew.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Message-ID-Hash: TVKDZHQNZXEQ5XL7R4MCPMHD7LAXBV5M X-Message-ID-Hash: TVKDZHQNZXEQ5XL7R4MCPMHD7LAXBV5M X-MailFrom: lars@nocrew.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Warner Losh wrote: > Rich Salz wrote: >> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in > > Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this question... V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been written in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim Gettys. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8975 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2023 11:06:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2023 11:06:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587F84252D; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:06:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC6442521 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:06:03 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: b99b9562-9efb-11ed-afdd-005056abad63 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id b99b9562-9efb-11ed-afdd-005056abad63; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=NYCeXqwuKxdO4s/9w5R7oq2QcxSG8q/FDEac7qIwGpU=; b=VAqfVJDupuLeU/06ewGtO/2NoIWcnLdkbfDPjOEos4igMbkwSqGu9fOaTp6xQbAT5njIPta9/qzLZ X6nUN+R2Oy1hLWYjFjuA6k43HMwFSc2jdV6FDGAEqNr3C/hkTD/zzV6SXtIPj3FSyNC6pTT0CevK41 kCQCbAAc8QjlcOQ4= X-KPN-MID: 33|nFdoEQCNiWq4JPDANeHTOaGIp2FA7J5IDJDDxhxuRWDNPTPSGvhxON65JODBG8K MFqYpxufRKmdXHEmsgUP3iLFNMvUhlX5ddWLtqIdjYe0= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|fssm8wCEX0HnRlYb5NsZ3KenJQON4IPEz8DhVXrHxz9mH8Hpmf3wTU8YdmulZx/ iKMa8hF56GVa6FZkb6n7n5w== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id ba0b5e7c-9efb-11ed-ae07-005056ab1411; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:52 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: EEK4SBXQTAQB5IZBPKGCHW7KBZBH7Q3E X-Message-ID-Hash: EEK4SBXQTAQB5IZBPKGCHW7KBZBH7Q3E X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 28 Jan 2023, at 10:14, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Warner Losh wrote: >> Rich Salz wrote: >>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in >>=20 >> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this = question... >=20 > V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been = written > in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. > Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim > Gettys. Whilst that is a reasonable assumption, I=E2=80=99m not sure it is true = in this case. Bob Scheifler writes in 1986: "We acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous = communication over TCP [24] produced by Asente and Chris Kent at = Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D It does not say =E2=80=9CC based=E2=80=9D, but it is quite possible that = the Unix port also meant moving to C. Also, the work started in June 1984 and had gone to version 10, release = 3 by February 1986. That is 12 versions in 20 months. Most likely = X1-X10R2 are all snapshots done in rapid succession. The change notes = for X10R3 read as describing a work still in progress: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/CHANGES That =E2=80=9Cwork-in-progress=E2=80=9D feel also shows in the Xterm = README: "Xterm is in a reasonably usable state. We are sick and tired of = working on it, but there are clearly major areas of improvement possible. Do not look to us to do more than integration work on other people's improvement. About 50% of it is the oldest existing code in the package and needing major rewrite. Our thanks to Bob McNamara for the 50% which is solid." The README for the X server itself (written in August 1985 it seems, = http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/X/README) says: "The server has been completely rewritten several times now, and I am = reasonably happy with it. I have fine-tuned it specifically for the current = (sub-optimal) VAX compiler. For other machines, faster code may be obtained in some = cases by changing sizes (e.g., to avoid indexing shifts on the 68000) or = register declarations. Attempts to parameterize along these lines have only been = made for the byte-swapping code.=E2=80=9D So there were several rewrites from Summer 1984 till Summer 1985. In = case the first version was in CLU, it would seem that the change-over to = C happened in the very first months of the code base=E2=80=99s lifespan. The next paragraph as to the state of the code base at this time is = revealing: Unfortunately, a great many invariants are not written down. Hopefully = you will spend a few weeks understanding the code before you muck with it. = If something seems easy to add or change, you probably forgot something = important. Almost everything depends on everything else. It is almost impossible = to devise rigorous test cases. Innocuous looking changes can have large performance effects, so watch out. If you muck with fundamental window components, a good cross-check is to see how quickly you can manipulate = a window with, say, 100 non-adjacent subwindows. After reading the above, Jon Steinhart=E2=80=99s post from 5 years ago = about X is all the more interesting: = https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2017-September/012089.html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11920 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2023 15:40:54 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2023 15:40:54 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0140442524; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:40:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f50.google.com (mail-ej1-f50.google.com [209.85.218.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF4DE42511 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:40:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f50.google.com with SMTP id gs13so10284108ejc.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 07:40:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=MD16dt0QrX96KhlJ6UaQLWHTUIlxTx7OyRyb/Wf3KvM=; b=0jROBnck+D5ArABzWN5WJU5AKEkBln+UZnKzYO5m4W6s4AIcSQAakL4T3H9LUgpT29 n6hGS6/ryLRUwLmomRyjXAHP2a8w6WzWEzeDeKVVd/TJtgq8+/raV137dBaJ8xvnFLFj +2tXyoOA7yl8LknkdMT3DWSyYUi8HLJI4g7jAbn87MxcGsJ/7jnuD3VFta6di9XwLnNA GIpYuDFR5TaGOAclHfGJAnbtivrc312MxzoJVTaVCxP45hLlem9PhvFXBCgyJZvPFGHr 5MntUyQeFradzrXNF8V369arTf/ETKPfUdTaJYCwzaNGmGAJGlsjJqHXrNDE8H0G6XlC kiCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=MD16dt0QrX96KhlJ6UaQLWHTUIlxTx7OyRyb/Wf3KvM=; b=Hg+6lsOtJVvDXvlHS4BaPT0awstW6Su1Ek2h4hkIMW/uGiBlGAgZzjGo77nLzCIYlQ RLfr/r1ny/PToG4/f2eBwfqJBWZVv9M3LLkFUyboJutavHjebqfBjBQQNSXTutgDZMFd pDlXi3gVrJCDvaLsYqmC9++rNElC1p7n7c2iO0/yH8rmkLo34RrkJQd0FKg2Sl+fZNpm 2WQ9Us4GjMwVY8jDNsett/tqs+1wmGBhxIbJUx0ecfGdbeQmcK0qrZ54XT1cpNOHwilD U403R4LDwzA6hjl+z62YF4Pq8aqr5EDjnTOZYbhNrM+6m3XMEuxEIzDUDWB8PZNuM4Zm R/Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVtiEPtdYoo5U4jSpfPsTQENniX8ceX6pyurGj2zVgSp7KGVid8 SseWq99S64Y9sQPScZbluybi/27B+uVv1xxwEPWjtQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtPmv4meOcX8s6I/cvDTzysYh/9dL3vNPkjTiqOe0irfjSJ8Wfa6tMSs5Cdety4E01RVvWjC/8QTpdu13Br5pQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3042:b0:877:ec5e:87ce with SMTP id d2-20020a170906304200b00877ec5e87cemr4128889ejd.262.1674920345925; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 07:39:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 08:38:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003f10fb05f354c899" Message-ID-Hash: UJ5D3BBLF6Y6NLBHE4AZ32IEPTFOCMFB X-Message-ID-Hash: UJ5D3BBLF6Y6NLBHE4AZ32IEPTFOCMFB X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000003f10fb05f354c899 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 4:05 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > > On 28 Jan 2023, at 10:14, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > > > Warner Losh wrote: > >> Rich Salz wrote: > >>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in > >> > >> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this > question... > > > > V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been written > > in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. > > Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim > > Gettys. > > Whilst that is a reasonable assumption, I=E2=80=99m not sure it is true i= n this > case. Bob Scheifler writes in 1986: > > "We acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous > communication over TCP [24] produced by Asente and Chris Kent at Digital= =E2=80=99s > Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D > > It does not say =E2=80=9CC based=E2=80=9D, but it is quite possible that = the Unix port > also meant moving to C. > > Also, the work started in June 1984 and had gone to version 10, release 3 > by February 1986. That is 12 versions in 20 months. Most likely X1-X10R2 > are all snapshots done in rapid succession. X11 is the 11th version of the wire protocol. They bumped that number each time there was a protocol change. It's not clear that all the early versions were distributed beyond the local network. The Xlib book stated something along these lines, but I can't find my copy to quote it or refresh my recollection. The change notes for X10R3 read as describing a work still in progress: > > http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/CHANGES > > That =E2=80=9Cwork-in-progress=E2=80=9D feel also shows in the Xterm READ= ME: > > "Xterm is in a reasonably usable state. We are sick and tired of working > on it, but there are clearly major areas of improvement possible. Do > not look to us to do more than integration work on other people's > improvement. About 50% of it is the oldest existing code in the package > and needing major rewrite. Our thanks to Bob McNamara for the 50% which > is solid." > Rolling releases were quite common. They went out of style for a while, but are back in vouge with CI.... The README for the X server itself (written in August 1985 it seems, > http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/X/README) says: > > "The server has been completely rewritten several times now, and I am > reasonably > happy with it. I have fine-tuned it specifically for the current > (sub-optimal) > VAX compiler. For other machines, faster code may be obtained in some > cases > by changing sizes (e.g., to avoid indexing shifts on the 68000) or regist= er > declarations. Attempts to parameterize along these lines have only been > made > for the byte-swapping code.=E2=80=9D > > So there were several rewrites from Summer 1984 till Summer 1985. In case > the first version was in CLU, it would seem that the change-over to C > happened in the very first months of the code base=E2=80=99s lifespan. > Most likely the CLU library bindings in X10R3 are a hold over from other software other departments were still using given the fast pace here... The next paragraph as to the state of the code base at this time is > revealing: > > Unfortunately, a great many invariants are not written down. Hopefully y= ou > will spend a few weeks understanding the code before you muck with it. I= f > something seems easy to add or change, you probably forgot something > important. > Almost everything depends on everything else. It is almost impossible to > devise rigorous test cases. Innocuous looking changes can have large > performance effects, so watch out. If you muck with fundamental window > components, a good cross-check is to see how quickly you can manipulate a > window with, say, 100 non-adjacent subwindows. > > After reading the above, Jon Steinhart=E2=80=99s post from 5 years ago ab= out X is > all the more interesting: > https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2017-September/012089.html I'd forgotten about that... Warner > > --0000000000003f10fb05f354c899 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 4:05 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:

> On 28 Jan 2023, at 10:14, Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrot= e:
>
> Warner Losh wrote:
>> Rich Salz wrote:
>>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written= in
>>
>> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer = this question...
>
> V source code exists, right?=C2=A0 It seems likely W would have been w= ritten
> in the same language as W.=C2=A0 And that early X would also be the sa= me.
> Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim > Gettys.

Whilst that is a reasonable assumption, I=E2=80=99m not sure it is true in = this case. Bob Scheifler writes in 1986:

"We acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous= communication over TCP [24] produced by Asente and Chris Kent at Digital= =E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D

It does not say =E2=80=9CC based=E2=80=9D, but it is quite possible that th= e Unix port also meant moving to C.

Also, the work started in June 1984 and had gone to version 10, release 3 b= y February 1986. That is 12 versions in 20 months. Most likely X1-X10R2 are= all snapshots done in rapid succession.

X11 is the 11th version of the wire p= rotocol. They bumped that number each time there was a protocol change. It&= #39;s not clear that all the early versions were distributed beyond the loc= al network. The Xlib book stated something along these lines, but I can'= ;t find my copy to quote it or refresh my recollection.


The change notes for X10R3 read= as describing a work still in progress:

http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/us= r/src/new/X/CHANGES

That =E2=80=9Cwork-in-progress=E2=80=9D feel also shows in the Xterm README= :

"Xterm is in a reasonably usable state.=C2=A0 We are sick and tired of= working
on it, but there are clearly major areas of improvement possible.=C2=A0 Do<= br> not look to us to do more than integration work on other people's
improvement.=C2=A0 About 50% of it is the oldest existing code in the packa= ge
and needing major rewrite.=C2=A0 Our thanks to Bob McNamara for the 50% whi= ch
is solid."

Rolling releases were quite common. They went out of style f= or a while, but are back in vouge with CI....

The README for the X server itself (written in August 1985 it seems, http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src= /new/X/X/README) says:

"The server has been completely rewritten several times now, and I am = reasonably
happy with it.=C2=A0 I have fine-tuned it specifically for the current (sub= -optimal)
VAX compiler.=C2=A0 For other machines, faster code may be obtained in some= cases
by changing sizes (e.g., to avoid indexing shifts on the 68000) or register=
declarations.=C2=A0 Attempts to parameterize along these lines have only be= en made
for the byte-swapping code.=E2=80=9D

So there were several rewrites from Summer 1984 till Summer 1985. In case t= he first version was in CLU, it would seem that the change-over to C happen= ed in the very first months of the code base=E2=80=99s lifespan.

Most likely= the CLU library bindings in X10R3 are a hold over from other software othe= r departments were still using given the fast pace here...

The next paragraph as to the state of the code base at this time is reveali= ng:

Unfortunately, a great many invariants are not written down.=C2=A0 Hopefull= y you
will spend a few weeks understanding the code before you muck with it.=C2= =A0 If
something seems easy to add or change, you probably forgot something import= ant.
Almost everything depends on everything else.=C2=A0 It is almost impossible= to
devise rigorous test cases.=C2=A0 Innocuous looking changes can have large<= br> performance effects, so watch out.=C2=A0 If you muck with fundamental windo= w
components, a good cross-check is to see how quickly you can manipulate a window with, say, 100 non-adjacent subwindows.

After reading the above, Jon Steinhart=E2=80=99s post from 5 years ago abou= t X is all the more interesting: https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2017-September/012089.html<= /a>


--0000000000003f10fb05f354c899-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3478 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2023 18:51:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2023 18:51:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78609424F2; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 04:51:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (junk.nocrew.org [51.15.56.219]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7C53424DB for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 04:51:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=junk.nocrew.org) by junk.nocrew.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pLqHy-0002Ez-Cf; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:50:58 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Paul Ruizendaal Organization: nocrew References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:50:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> (Paul Ruizendaal's message of "Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:51 +0100") Message-ID: <7wlelma3xp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lars@nocrew.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on junk.nocrew.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Message-ID-Hash: WT3IFOZBQZ63UBW7SAJ3MDLPHE7FWYRS X-Message-ID-Hash: WT3IFOZBQZ63UBW7SAJ3MDLPHE7FWYRS X-MailFrom: lars@nocrew.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >> V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been >> written in the same language as [V]. And that early X would also be >> the same. Another source of information would be to ask Bob >> Scheifler and Jim Gettys. > > Whilst that is a reasonable assumption, I=E2=80=99m not sure it is true in > this case. Bob Scheifler writes in 1986: > > "We acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the [VS1OO] (with > synchronous communication over TCP [24] produced by Asente and Chris > Kent at Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D > > It does not say =E2=80=9CC based=E2=80=9D, but it is quite possible that = the Unix port > also meant moving to C. I checked V, and it's written in C. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29761 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2023 06:49:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2023 06:49:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF24424CF; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 16:48:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (junk.nocrew.org [51.15.56.219]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10329424C9 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 16:48:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=junk.nocrew.org) by junk.nocrew.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pM1U9-0005n5-EJ; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 06:48:17 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Warner Losh Organization: nocrew References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 06:48:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:14:06 +0000") Message-ID: <7wh6w9alam.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lars@nocrew.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on junk.nocrew.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Message-ID-Hash: XVKVHL54LDNHWUQIN6LFPO6YF2T2FD2D X-Message-ID-Hash: XVKVHL54LDNHWUQIN6LFPO6YF2T2FD2D X-MailFrom: lars@nocrew.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: >>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in >> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this question... > > V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been written > in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. > Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim > Gettys. I asked Bob, and he says W was written in C. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1546 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2023 20:40:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2023 20:40:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2174259E; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:39:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.168]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59B984259A for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:39:24 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: faae8f85-a014-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.40]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id faae8f85-a014-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=qSWRSLA6u7lQfd1Ags/B7P8sDHfdQ8zO6kNhBZYWZCA=; b=Exk91VCabz1yeYGaIH/vevLDUFoFwZm1F6B5MwecA1C67j+7ARn+uZA0tspOROHXQR6W6zvvak+F2 +BDcKqWaNT2bPMaGbTFLyzFbceQ2Pd+eoeCFVnPCxgq5iuY/U5crlmwOgo0YGDccbQ/0DaxNEuCd3r kym5snEGhAcHuRY0= X-KPN-MID: 33|w2v+i+1fYU1imv3H5iyWp73gUWUTmFMv2hq6MEQlpydskdBbvTS306DUbREx+ZZ Sh+Sj6hRaaKHZA85TX4/5aXv44QS8KfdIL61Cls3CywI= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|loPbAs+aTdeRp+b6HpepGJu4Amm6dkw1/QZhQ1BGPfFkhJ1LHA7fYGzdL6hANX0 kdZqSuS8I/gY1E5LNcaH11Q== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id fc9ebae8-a014-11ed-927c-005056ab7584; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:12 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: <7wh6w9alam.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:11 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34B2F3A7-B2A2-4597-8181-6A291CE3BEB1@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh6w9alam.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> To: Lars Brinkhoff X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: 7YXDNVZCGS5H3B7574A4TWDKX4M5VI4F X-Message-ID-Hash: 7YXDNVZCGS5H3B7574A4TWDKX4M5VI4F X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 29 Jan 2023, at 07:48, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 >>>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in >>> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this = question... >>=20 >> V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been = written >> in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. >> Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim >> Gettys. >=20 > I asked Bob, and he says W was written in C. Thank you! In the meantime I have also found the thesis of William Nowicki, the = author of VGTS: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA166935.pdf It has a timeline for VGTS in its appendix C. In short, development = begins in 1982 as a carve out of the display routines of a VLSI design = package. It seems to have become usable in 1983 and development = continued into 1984 (Nowicki graduated in March 1985). This places the development of W in 1983 (before that VGTS did not = exist, and by early =E2=80=9984 a Unix version existed). This https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA231239.pdf document from 1990 = claims: "The X Window System has a very alphabetical lineage. The family = originated at Stanford University as the VGTS, or V system, a primitive = networked graphics windowing system. Then Digital Electronic Corporation = desired a more advanced version of V and worked with Stanford University = to develop W. Because of the needs of a networking and windowing project = sponsored by IBM at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT = acquired the W system and greatly improved its networking = capabilities.=E2=80=9D The above seems not quite accurate: besides the V / VGTS mixup, Scheifer = writes that W was more a simplification rather than an extension of = VGTS: "VGTS provides graphics windows driven by fairly high-level object = definitions from a structured display file; W provides graphics windows = based on a simple display-list mechanism, with limited functionality. We = acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous = communication over TCP produced by [Paul] Asente and Chris Kent at = Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D However, the links with DEC that these paragraphs make are interesting. = There is this blog post from Bryan Lunduke = (https://lunduke.substack.com/p/w-the-window-system-before-x-that) makes = a link between the W window system and DEC=E2=80=99s 1984 "VAXstation = Display System Software=E2=80=9D. It is possible that these two pieces = of software are in fact closely related.