From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URI_HEX autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16849 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2021 11:01:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Feb 2021 11:01:42 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 658DC93D2B; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:01:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482CE93D1B; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:00:59 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=planet.nl header.i=@planet.nl header.b="Rj5nUG1I"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 69BFA93D1B; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:00:53 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 783 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:00:47 AEST Received: from cpsmtpb-ews08.kpnxchange.com (cpsmtpb-ews08.kpnxchange.com [213.75.39.13]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E2393D06 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:00:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from cpsps-ews14.kpnxchange.com ([10.94.84.181]) by cpsmtpb-ews08.kpnxchange.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(8.5.9600.16384); Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:47:40 +0100 X-Brand: 7abm2Q== X-KPN-SpamVerdict: e1=0;e2=0;e3=0;e4=;e6=(e1=10;e3=10;e2=11;e4=10;e6=1 0);EVW:White;BM:NotScanned;FinalVerdict:Clean X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=E/yuGYRl c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=60323a4c cx=a_idp_e a=/dHbpd/3q0lrH6oA/zwSgQ==:117 a=soxbC+bCkqwFbqeW/W/r+Q==:17 a=x1i13A_MHe4A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=qa6Q16uM49sA:10 a=xOd6jRPJAAAA:8 a=D2as5ufr75RDhwJKgzQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=p2IOnBAzwV8vXciPbnnL:22 X-CM-AcctID: kpn@feedback.cloudmark.com Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl ([195.121.84.45]) by cpsps-ews14.kpnxchange.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(8.5.9600.16384); Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:47:40 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=MYgoDv2WMJLmIw44AMvCe/Cv7uf4hcBRUA3g+eZqTEw=; b=Rj5nUG1ITHJYy5sNDDbJR9jpmZJAv2IpHIjVIUCTaF4nftRejkrYOwbjB7z0wP/gfbdr/dQeJhkw0 jCnXoTdodot1ODkq0hRJG1SGijn7nVFFdgt1uz0TCY156IQuBQ30UeDsxPUIy4SABH9hNpuQ9OIbdt zKuJLUK//MK/zVWg= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|jFI8L+ExjWEmjlhNHmVX9Ku0/z0Z/KJTIEFgQ0YE8g4NLo+5Z0nGV+9r0OSALeb xcHJuvOW7WigM2Eg5KTQQNA== X-Originating-IP: 80.101.112.122 Received: from mba2.fritz.box (sqlite.xs4all.nl [80.101.112.122]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 380492fe-7432-11eb-b554-005056ab7447; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:47:40 +0100 (CET) From: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Message-Id: <0D0EC7CA-0014-44D5-BABD-CF799F9D4418@planet.nl> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:47:39 +0100 To: TUHS main list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2021 10:47:40.0616 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA022C80:01D7083E] X-RcptDomain: minnie.tuhs.org Subject: [TUHS] Abstractions X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" To quote from Jon=E2=80=99s post: > There have been heated discussions on this list about kernel API = bloat. In my > opinion, these discussions have mainly been people grumbling about = what they > don't like. I'd like to flip the discussion around to what we would = like. > Ken and Dennis did a great job with initial abstractions. Some on = this list > have claimed that these abstractions weren't sufficient for modern = times. > Now that we have new information from modern use cases, how would we = rethink > the basic abstractions? I=E2=80=99d like to add the constraint of things that would have been = implementable on the hardware of the late 1970=E2=80=99s, let=E2=80=99s say a PDP11/70 = with Datakit or 3Mbps Ethernet or Arpanet; maybe also Apple 2 class bitmap graphics. And quote some other posts: > Because it's easy pickings, I would claim that the socket system call = is out > of line with the UNIX abstractions; it exists because of practical = political > considerations, not because it's needed. I think that it would have = fit > better folded into the open system call. >>=20 >> Somebody once suggested a filesystem interface (it certainly fits the = Unix=20 >> philosophy); I don't recall the exact details. >=20 > And it was done, over 30 years ago; see Plan 9 from Bell Labs.... I would argue that quite a bit of that was implementable as early as 6th Edition. I was researching that very topic last Spring [1] and back = ported Peter Weinberger=E2=80=99s File System Switch (FSS) from 8th to 6th = Edition; the switch itself bloats the kernel by about half a kilobyte. I think it may = be one of the few imaginable extensions that do not dilute the incredible bang/buck ratio of the V6 kernel. With that change in place a lot of other things become possible: - a Kilian style procfs - a Weinberger style network FS - a text/file based ioctl - a clean approach to named pipes - a different starting point to sockets Each of these would add to kernel size of course, hence I=E2=80=99m = thinking about a split I/D kernel. To some extent it is surprising that the FSS did not happen around 1975, = as many ideas around it were 'in the air' at the time (Heinz Lycklama=E2=80=99= s peripheral Unix, the Spider network Filestore, Rand ports, Arpanet Unix, etc). With = the benefit of hindsight, it isn=E2=80=99t a great code leap from the cdev = switch to the FSS - but probably the ex ante conceptual leap was just too big at the = time. Paul [1] Code diffs here: = https://1587660.websites.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/9995/vdiff?from=3Dfab15b88a6a0f= 36bdb41f24f0b828a67c5f9fe03&to=3Db95342aaa826bb3c422963108c76d09969b1de93&= sbs=3D1