Re: [TUHS] more about Brian...

[Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>]

Just ignore the swagger.

I would go further than Rob in that even for sequential
programs there is no virtue in sticking to malloc/free if you
don't have to. The whole point of automation (for me) is to
delegate all the boring and repetitive work to computers so
that I can focus on more interesting things! And solving
malloc/free related bugs is boring and repetitive. For
embedded code in limited space you want to use memory
carefully but for most of userland code we don't have to
worry about saving every byte. Most userland code is not real
time code (and doesn't run on realtime OSes).  That doesn't
mean using memory like water -- there is a middle ground.
Don't blame the GC for incompetently programmed websites or
for layers of code using third party libraries using other
third party libraries.

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't understand your disagreement. In what way is automatic memory management harder, more unsafe, and less robust than hand-written memory management using malloc and free?
> 
> You seem to think that garbage collection only exists in languages that have a smell you don't like. Perhaps that's true, but it's been around for 60 or more years and a lot of important languages use it, while the programmers that use those languages are often quite capable.
> 
> Using malloc and free might be a badge of honor to some, but it's also a failure of automation.
> 
> This discussion should probably go to COFF, or perhaps I should just leave the list. I am starting to feel uncomfortable here. Too much swagger.
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 5:19 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
> "it's a lot easier, safer, and robust to let the machine do the memory
> accounting"
> 
> I disagree. "The machine" is, as you know, is in reality app code
> built on top of frameworks built on top of libraries built on top of
> more libraries built on top of malloc/free calls. While the automated
> testing tools are a lot better than they were when I started coding C
> back in 1985, we're still talking about a *lot* of complexity and a
> lot of layers of code, and programmers today know far less about
> things like boundary conditions, off-by-one bugs, and the like that
> bit us in the ass - hard - and so we learned to watch for those sorts
> of things.
> 
> On 2/5/22, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Be careful with your castigations. Yes, there is lots of old working code,
> > but keep in mind that that code has often not been as widely tested and
> > deployed as much of the software that runs today. The fact that it worked
> > well on old hardware doesn't mean it will be suitable for modern networked
> > remotely administered multicore machines pounded on by millions of people.
> >
> > And speaking of multicore, it's possible to write code using malloc/free
> > that doesn't leak when run concurrently, but it's a lot easier, safer, and
> > robust to let the machine do the memory accounting. And the fact that "kids
> > today" can't do it doesn't mean they are lazy or failures, it means they
> > grew up in a different time. And a lot of them are as capable as you all,
> > just in a different environment.
> >
> > Lately this list has a lot of attitude and prejudice pretending to be
> > wisdom and superiority.
> >
> > -rob
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 12:11 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/5/22 6:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:28:10PM +0100, Hellwig Geisse wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Thomas,
> >>
> >> On Fr, 2022-02-04 at 20:45 +0100, Thomas Paulsen wrote:
> >>
> >> I tell you one thing: I never ever experienced any problems with
> >> traditional malloc()/free().??
> >>
> >> did you ever write a program which does heavy malloc()/free()
> >> on complicated (i.e., shared) data structures *and* runs for
> >> days, perhaps weeks? IMO it's very difficult to do this without
> >> a GC, and you have to exercise quite an amount of discipline
> >> to do it right.
> >>
> >> I've done this and I've employed people who have done this.  We're
> >> a dieing breed, the focus seems to be on programming languages and
> >> tools for idiots.  People don't want to learn the discipline it takes
> >> to work with malloc()/free().  It's sad.
> >>
> >>
> >> I completely agree. This is ridiculous. Do modern programmer's seriously
> >> think that the old code wasn't complex or robust? Sheesh, there's code
> >> out
> >> there that has run through more millions of transactions an hour for more
> >> years than most of these folks have been alive. There's also code that's
> >> been running without any updates, for decades. Most code written by the
> >> newbreed won't run for a month without surfacing dozens of bugs. Margaret
> >> Hamilton would prolly have some choice words for these folks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >