32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[macbiesz]

You should make some kind of status log, showing what parts of the system have been ported, and what still needs to be done. That would make it easier for others to help out.

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2003 4:56 am
Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

> I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own 
> header files 
> before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got 
> some 
> weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 
> 
> gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> 
> Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as 
> before, I know 
> nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> 
> If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the 
> libraries 
> sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Wesley Parish]

Well, for a start, I've got most of the src/libc/gen ported - but I'll need to 
work on some of the files.  I've been saving the command-line to a file so I 
can see just what and where I'm finding problems.

src/libc/sys is *.s files, and I've got no background in VAX assembler or gas, 
so I'd rather someone who's experienced takes that on.

Thanks

Wesley Parish

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:18, macbiesz at optonline.net wrote:
> You should make some kind of status log, showing what parts of the system
> have been ported, and what still needs to be done. That would make it
> easier for others to help out.
>
> Maciek
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2003 4:56 am
> Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
>
> > I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own
> > header files
> > before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got
> > some
> > weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to
> >
> > gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> >
> > Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as
> > before, I know
> > nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> >
> > If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> >
> > Wesley Parish
> >
> > P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the
> > libraries
> > sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Robertdkeys]

Or, for something really wierd...., how about porting 32V to
the modern VAXen, such as the scsi 3000 or 4000 class
machines?  x86 is nice, and good to do because of its
generic ubiquity, but somehow it ought to roll again on
something, VAX, too.....(:+}}... just for usable posterity.
How much of a chore would it be to port from say an
Ultrix box?  The tool chain should be basically intact.
Mebbie it is time to dust off our old VAX 3000 M38 crates.

There I go thinking out loud...., again.....

Bob Keys

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Gregg C Levine]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1655 bytes --]

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I don't know, it makes sense. Sort of. There's nothing wrong with
thinking out loud, I do that all the time here. 

As for recreating that world, all I can say is why not? There's
technology out there waiting to be used, and talent to provide for it.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Robertdkeys at aol.com
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:38 PM
> To: Pat.Villani at hp.com; wes.parish at paradise.net.nz
> Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V
...)
> 
> Or, for something really wierd...., how about porting 32V to
> the modern VAXen, such as the scsi 3000 or 4000 class
> machines?  x86 is nice, and good to do because of its
> generic ubiquity, but somehow it ought to roll again on
> something, VAX, too.....(:+}}... just for usable posterity.
> How much of a chore would it be to port from say an
> Ultrix box?  The tool chain should be basically intact.
> Mebbie it is time to dust off our old VAX 3000 M38 crates.
> 
> There I go thinking out loud...., again.....
> 
> Bob Keys
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...

[Pat Villani]

Folks,

I recently copied down the 32V source, and compiled the kernel with gcc.  Much 
to my surprise, most of it compiled.  I then split out the machine dependent 
versus the machine independent files (loose classification :-), and compiled 
again.  Naturally, in both cases, you could not actually build a kernel because 
there are vax specific .s files, but the individual C files compiled.  Not a bad 
start.

As a result, I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to Intel IA32 
platforms.  It's much simpler than the unix I worked on until last year (Tru64, 
aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V kernel is only a little bigger than the 
original FreeDOS kernel I wrote.  The Caldera license is pretty much a BSD 
license, which could be considered an open source license.  This means I should 
be able to work on it without worrying about IP, although I'd still need 
management approval.

Should I undertake such an project, would there be enough interest to justify 
the effort?

Pat

-- 
You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do. -- Henry Ford

[TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...

[Wesley Parish]

I'm doing an en-masse compile of the programs in the /32V/usr/src/cmd 
directory, little-by-little, bit-by-bit.

Some don't compile, some do.

I've also run the bigger utilities - in their separate directories - through 
make with Greg Lehey's little one-liner script from "Porting UNIX Software", 
pg 74:
make 2>&1 | tee -a Make.log 

and will gzip and email them to you if you like.

Wesley Parish

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:00, Pat Villani wrote:
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel
> > files.
>
> Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging
> for me.  :)
>
> I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at
> the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to
> build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.
>
> What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat
> vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I
> separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax
> dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform
> neutral.
>
> I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax
> dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.
>
> I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to
> look at.
>
> Pat

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

[TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...

[Pat Villani]

OK.  I'm in the process of getting approval for this project.  I'll put 
what I've done so far up on a web site and send out the URL.  If you do 
send the gzip'ed commands, I'll include those as well.  No rush, as I 
won't do any of this until this weekend.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'm doing an en-masse compile of the programs in the /32V/usr/src/cmd 
> directory, little-by-little, bit-by-bit.
> 
> Some don't compile, some do.
> 
> I've also run the bigger utilities - in their separate directories - through 
> make with Greg Lehey's little one-liner script from "Porting UNIX Software", 
> pg 74:
> make 2>&1 | tee -a Make.log 
> 
> and will gzip and email them to you if you like.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:00, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>Wesley Parish wrote:
>>
>>>I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel
>>>files.
>>
>>Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging
>>for me.  :)
>>
>>I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at
>>the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to
>>build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.
>>
>>What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat
>>vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I
>>separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax
>>dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform
>>neutral.
>>
>>I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax
>>dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.
>>
>>I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to
>>look at.
>>
>>Pat
> 
> 

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Pat Villani]

I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal, 
to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V 
may encounter a similar wrath, and make sure I don't "compete" with HP. 
  How in the world a 15 year old operating system threatens SCO or 
competes with HP is beyond me.  At any rate, I'll start moving the email 
activity off the corporate network soon, in order to comply with open 
source participation rules.

In the meantime, I have just placed a copy of the reorganized kernel 
files in ftp://server.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V. This is my personal 
server, so it's easy for me to put source code there, at least for now. 
  The reorganization consists mainly of separating out drivers, and a 
scratch file for a locore.asm file.  I also placed formalized license 
notices in the directory and files, so to alert everyone of the license 
terms.

It's a start ...

Pat

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Wesley Parish]

It's downloaded.

I would suggest renaming it to something like 32V-x86, though - makes it 
easier to remember it's not going to be precisely the same as 32V for VAX.

In relation to corporate caveats, the only way you could actually compete with 
HP is if somehow, in a matter of months, you redid the entire development of 
BSD and SVRx, up to the stage HP-UX currently is at.

Oh well, time for me to brush off my Pajari book on Unix device drivers and 
see if I can make the grade! ;)

Wesley Parish


On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:56, Pat Villani wrote:
> I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
> to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
> may encounter a similar wrath, and make sure I don't "compete" with HP.
>   How in the world a 15 year old operating system threatens SCO or
> competes with HP is beyond me.  At any rate, I'll start moving the email
> activity off the corporate network soon, in order to comply with open
> source participation rules.
>
> In the meantime, I have just placed a copy of the reorganized kernel
> files in ftp://server.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V. This is my personal
> server, so it's easy for me to put source code there, at least for now.
>   The reorganization consists mainly of separating out drivers, and a
> scratch file for a locore.asm file.  I also placed formalized license
> notices in the directory and files, so to alert everyone of the license
> terms.
>
> It's a start ...
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Pat Villani]

Silly lawyers :-)  I know I'm good, but building in all the HP-UX 
features in a few months?  Not that good (or modest for that matter).

Hm, 32V-x86 huh?  Maybe, but I'd like to make it fairly portable and 
have a number of targets built from the same source tree.  I don't know 
if that will ever happen, but I don't want to design it out either by 
name or file partitioning.  Maybe we can address the project name at a 
later date.

I'll keep the VAX port alive throughout the project by making sure I can 
cross compile a clean VAX kernel at every milestone.  There may still be 
a VAX in the building somewhere.  Even if one was around, I won't be 
testing the VAX port thanks to HP legal.  We're now cleaning house of 
alpha systems, so a VAX is almost impossible to locate.  Darn mergers 
keeps wiping them out, like that asteroid and dinosaurs years ago ;-)

Progress: I'm working on the make file.  I'm trying to get a clean build 
by substituting stubs for the VAX code I ripped out.  Once done, I can 
concentrate on x86 equivalents.

Device drivers: I have keyboard and character cell VGA code I can use. 
I had been planning on adapting the Hale Landis ATA code from 
http://www.ata-atapi.com/, and the Thix floppy driver from 
http://www.hulubei.net/tudor/thix/ is probably a good piece of code to 
model the 32V driver on.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:

> It's downloaded.
> 
> I would suggest renaming it to something like 32V-x86, though - makes it 
> easier to remember it's not going to be precisely the same as 32V for VAX.
> 
> In relation to corporate caveats, the only way you could actually compete with 
> HP is if somehow, in a matter of months, you redid the entire development of 
> BSD and SVRx, up to the stage HP-UX currently is at.
> 
> Oh well, time for me to brush off my Pajari book on Unix device drivers and 
> see if I can make the grade! ;)
> 
> Wesley Parish

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Greg Lehey]

On Thursday, 30 October 2003 at  7:56:41 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
> to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
> may encounter a similar wrath,

I'm only just catching up with this thread, but I'm surprised that
nobody else pointed out that SCO is the same company that released
"ancient UNIX" under a free license in January 2002.  Given SCO's
behaviour, that doesn't guarantee that they won't cause problems, but
it should severely limit the scope.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Pat Villani]

I have my opinions about SCO, and what they're doing.  I don't think 
we'll see any problems because this activity is down in the noise.  They 
need to challenge Linux at the enterprise level.  It will be quite some 
time, if ever, that 32V reaches that level of complexity in order to be 
a threat.

For now, it's an exercise in nostalgia.  In 1980, a friend and I 
investigated licensing unix for sale on 68K and 8086 based computers. 
We couldn't raise the $68,000 source+binary license fee, so the project 
died.  That was more than double my salary as an engineer at that time.

Now, 23 years later, I'm going to do a port to see how close my original 
estimates are to reality.  After the initial port, who knows?

Pat

Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Thursday, 30 October 2003 at  7:56:41 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
>>to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
>>may encounter a similar wrath,
> 
> 
> I'm only just catching up with this thread, but I'm surprised that
> nobody else pointed out that SCO is the same company that released
> "ancient UNIX" under a free license in January 2002.  Given SCO's
> behaviour, that doesn't guarantee that they won't cause problems, but
> it should severely limit the scope.
> 
> Greg
> --
> Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Wesley Parish]

Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o using 
gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.

I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for using as 
the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.

Wesley Parish

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Pat Villani]

Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so 
expect an inline function for the system calls.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:

> Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o using 
> gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
> 
> I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for using as 
> the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Wesley Parish]

I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own header files 
before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got some 
weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 

gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h

Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as before, I know 
nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.

If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.

Wesley Parish

P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the libraries 
sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:34, Pat Villani wrote:
> Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so
> expect an inline function for the system calls.
>
> Pat
>
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o
> > using gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
> >
> > I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for
> > using as the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
> >
> > Wesley Parish

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

[Pat Villani]

For what you're doing, I think you'll want to add -nostdinc, and 
-nodefaultlibs to your gcc command line.  The -nostdinc option stops the 
compiler from looking at the standard include path files, and the 
-nodefaultlibs option causes the compiler to not use any of the gcc 
libraries while still using the standard startup file.  You'll have to 
supply the paths to the headers and libraries yourself.

In case I'm wrong, and you need to supply your own startup code as well, 
change the -nodefaultlibs option to -nostdlib.  That drops all standard 
startup code and libraries from the build.  It's the set of options I'm 
using in the current kernel build (to be released next week some time).

According to the gcc docs, the compiler may generate calls to memcmp, 
memset, and memcpy.  That means they'll be the first calls you'll have 
to implement in your libraries.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own header files 
> before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got some 
> weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 
> 
> gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> 
> Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as before, I know 
> nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> 
> If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the libraries 
> sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.
> 
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:34, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so
>>expect an inline function for the system calls.
>>
>>Pat
>>
>>Wesley Parish wrote:
>>
>>>Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o
>>>using gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
>>>
>>>I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for
>>>using as the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
>>>
>>>Wesley Parish
> 
>