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* [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re:  If not Linux, then what?)
@ 2019-08-28 16:50 Paul Winalski
  2019-08-28 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Paul Winalski @ 2019-08-28 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list

On 8/28/19, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 2:46 AM Peter Jeremy <peter@rulingia.com> wrote:
>
> Tru64 talked to DECnet Phase X (I don't remember which one, maybe 4 or 5),
> which had become an ISO/OSI stack by that point for political reasons
> inside of Digital (the OSI vs TCP war reminded me of the Pascal vs C and
> VMS vs UNIX wars - all very silly in retrospect, but I guess it was really
> about who got which $s for development).

It was DECnet Phase V that was based on the ISO/OSI stack.  IIRC, at
the time the European telcos were pushing OSI, it had become an ISO
standard, etc. etc.  It was also pretty easy to compatibly slide the
legacy proprietary DECnet Phase IV adaptive routing and virtual
circuit layers into the OSI stack.

TCP won the war, of course.  The risk with international standards
fashioned out of whole cloth by a committee (as opposed to being a
regularization of existing practice) is that the marketplace may
choose to ignore the "standard".  OSI and the Ada programming language
are cases in point.

-Paul W.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re:  If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 16:50 [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?) Paul Winalski
@ 2019-08-28 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
  2019-08-28 17:45   ` Jon Forrest
  2019-08-28 18:17   ` Kurt H Maier
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-08-28 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Paul Winalski; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:50:36PM -0400, Paul Winalski wrote:
> On 8/28/19, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 2:46 AM Peter Jeremy <peter@rulingia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Tru64 talked to DECnet Phase X (I don't remember which one, maybe 4 or 5),
> > which had become an ISO/OSI stack by that point for political reasons
> > inside of Digital (the OSI vs TCP war reminded me of the Pascal vs C and
> > VMS vs UNIX wars - all very silly in retrospect, but I guess it was really
> > about who got which $s for development).
> 
> It was DECnet Phase V that was based on the ISO/OSI stack.  IIRC, at
> the time the European telcos were pushing OSI, it had become an ISO
> standard, etc. etc.  It was also pretty easy to compatibly slide the
> legacy proprietary DECnet Phase IV adaptive routing and virtual
> circuit layers into the OSI stack.
> 
> TCP won the war, of course.  The risk with international standards
> fashioned out of whole cloth by a committee (as opposed to being a
> regularization of existing practice) is that the marketplace may
> choose to ignore the "standard".  OSI and the Ada programming language
> are cases in point.

The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
Style [*].

Maybe it's just that I read that book at the right time, I was porting
Lachman's STREAMS based TCP/IP stack, I had taken a networking class
where we built a stack, so I knew there was a state machine in there,
I had read Masscomp's networking primer and written some clients and
servers.  So I sort of knew a little but did not have the big picture.
I read Mike's book and it snapped everything into focus, which is in
part why I loved it.  The other part was all the less than subtle jabs
at OSI.  Mike couldn't stand the OSI model, another quote from the book
is "If you know what you are doing, 3 layers are enough.  If you don't,
7 layers won't help you".

I liked the book enough that I tracked down a phone number for Mike,
I think he was at UCLA or somewhere in LA but I might be wrong (the
number I have is 310-670-4288 which is a LA area code), and called him
and thanked him for the book.  We ended up becoming friendly with each
other and chatted from time to time about networking stuff.  I miss that
guy, he was great.

[*] The book is available here for $20.  Worth it.

https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/124830-The-Elements-of-Networking-Style

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-08-28 17:45   ` Jon Forrest
  2019-08-28 17:50     ` Larry McVoy
  2019-08-28 18:17   ` Kurt H Maier
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jon Forrest @ 2019-08-28 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs



On 8/28/2019 10:24 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:

> The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
> protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
> Style [*].
> I liked the book enough that I tracked down a phone number for Mike,
> I think he was at UCLA or somewhere in LA but I might be wrong (the
> number I have is 310-670-4288 which is a LA area code), and called him
> and thanked him for the book.  We ended up becoming friendly with each
> other and chatted from time to time about networking stuff.  I miss that
> guy, he was great.

I'm an average system person who's has had the great fortune to have
worked with many world-class people. My first real job was at Ford
Aerospace in 1978. They were an early commercial user of Unix (PWB in
their case). John Nagle had the desk next to me. Mike Padlipski was also
in the  group. I never knew exactly what Mike did, given that he seemed
to spend most of his time smoking and reading the N. Y. Times. But,
other great people in the group said that Mike was a networking
protocol expert. I guess he was.

Mike didn't really converse. Instead, he expounded at great length.
He was quite a character.

> [*] The book is available here for $20.  Worth it.

I have a copy I'd like to sell. It's the 1985 printing. I'll
also sell my copy for $20 + shipping (local pickup in the
Berkeley area is welcome). Contact me off list if you're
interested.

Jon


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 17:45   ` Jon Forrest
@ 2019-08-28 17:50     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-08-28 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jon Forrest; +Cc: tuhs

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:45:38AM -0700, Jon Forrest wrote:
> >[*] The book is available here for $20.  Worth it.
> 
> I have a copy I'd like to sell. It's the 1985 printing. I'll
> also sell my copy for $20 + shipping (local pickup in the
> Berkeley area is welcome). Contact me off list if you're
> interested.

If there are any young kids on the list for whom this would be 
helpful I'll happily pay for the book to go to you.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re:  If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
  2019-08-28 17:45   ` Jon Forrest
@ 2019-08-28 18:17   ` Kurt H Maier
  2019-08-28 19:29     ` SPC
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2019-08-28 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
> protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
> Style [*].
> 

This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning
signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.  I
keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it
regularly.  It's also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of
context about how we got where we are.

khm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 18:17   ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2019-08-28 19:29     ` SPC
  2019-08-29  0:29       ` George Michaelson
  2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: SPC @ 2019-08-28 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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It's a bit funny (at least for me) because I was talking about DECNET as
OSI standard and TCP/IP and OSI differences some days ago to the group of
students of a course on network operation that I am teaching.

On the other hand I don't that book about networking. I'd like to get one
copy bit I live in Spain. Shipment is not a problem but perhaps to deal
with shipping procedures abroad is not what you have in mind :-)

Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße
-----
Sergio Pedraja

Senior Technician in Computer Science, Systems Administration, and
Information Security. MBA. Qualified occupational trainer.

El mié., 28 ago. 2019 20:24, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> escribió:

> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >
> > The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
> > protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
> > Style [*].
> >
>
> This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning
> signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.  I
> keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it
> regularly.  It's also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of
> context about how we got where we are.
>
> khm
>

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<div dir="auto">It&#39;s a bit funny (at least for me) because I was talking about DECNET as OSI standard and TCP/IP and OSI differences some days ago to the group of students of a course on network operation that I am teaching.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">On the other hand I don&#39;t that book about networking. I&#39;d like to get one copy bit I live in Spain. Shipment is not a problem but perhaps to deal with shipping procedures abroad is not what you have in mind :-)<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße<br>-----<br>Sergio Pedraja<br><br>Senior Technician in Computer Science, Systems Administration, and Information Security. MBA. Qualified occupational trainer.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mié., 28 ago. 2019 20:24, Kurt H Maier &lt;<a href="mailto:khm@sciops.net">khm@sciops.net</a>&gt; escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The great Mike Padlipski said &quot;do you want protocols that look nice or<br>
&gt; protocols that work nice?&quot; in his fantastic book Elements of Networking<br>
&gt; Style [*].<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning<br>
signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.  I<br>
keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it<br>
regularly.  It&#39;s also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of<br>
context about how we got where we are.<br>
<br>
khm<br>
</blockquote></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 19:29     ` SPC
@ 2019-08-29  0:29       ` George Michaelson
  2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2019-08-29  0:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: SPC; +Cc: TUHS main list

SPDY and QUIC re-capitulate some ideas of the session layer. It is
ironic how many repudiated aspects of the OSI model are re-surfacing
inside IP centric networking.

-G

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 5:29 AM SPC <spedraja@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's a bit funny (at least for me) because I was talking about DECNET as OSI standard and TCP/IP and OSI differences some days ago to the group of students of a course on network operation that I am teaching.
>
> On the other hand I don't that book about networking. I'd like to get one copy bit I live in Spain. Shipment is not a problem but perhaps to deal with shipping procedures abroad is not what you have in mind :-)
>
> Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße
> -----
> Sergio Pedraja
>
> Senior Technician in Computer Science, Systems Administration, and Information Security. MBA. Qualified occupational trainer.
>
> El mié., 28 ago. 2019 20:24, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> escribió:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> >
>> > The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
>> > protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
>> > Style [*].
>> >
>>
>> This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning
>> signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.  I
>> keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it
>> regularly.  It's also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of
>> context about how we got where we are.
>>
>> khm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-28 19:29     ` SPC
  2019-08-29  0:29       ` George Michaelson
@ 2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
  2019-08-30  9:32         ` Wesley Parish
  2019-08-31 23:38         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-08-29 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: SPC, tuhs

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Although I never have seen OSI in the wild, it was the one great thing about ‘Winsock’ is that it worked over TCP/IP , IPX/SPX, AppletTalk and Decnet.  It was fun to convert a BBS from being telnet to some ‘telnet over decnet’ monster I built.

Although I’m guessing OSI would have allowed for common ‘network’ applications to use different network topologies?

I really need to get OSF/1 2.0 installed.


From: SPC
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2019 3:30 AM
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)

It's a bit funny (at least for me) because I was talking about DECNET as OSI standard and TCP/IP and OSI differences some days ago to the group of students of a course on network operation that I am teaching.

On the other hand I don't that book about networking. I'd like to get one copy bit I live in Spain. Shipment is not a problem but perhaps to deal with shipping procedures abroad is not what you have in mind :-)
Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße
-----
Sergio Pedraja

Senior Technician in Computer Science, Systems Administration, and Information Security. MBA. Qualified occupational trainer.

El mié., 28 ago. 2019 20:24, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> escribió:
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> The great Mike Padlipski said "do you want protocols that look nice or
> protocols that work nice?" in his fantastic book Elements of Networking
> Style [*].
> 

This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning
signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.  I
keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it
regularly.  It's also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of
context about how we got where we are.

khm


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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Although I never have seen OSI in the wild, it was the one great thing about ‘Winsock’ is that it worked over TCP/IP , IPX/SPX, AppletTalk and Decnet.  It was fun to convert a BBS from being telnet to some ‘telnet over decnet’ monster I built.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Although I’m guessing OSI would have allowed for common ‘network’ applications to use different network topologies?</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I really need to get OSF/1 2.0 installed.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:spedraja@gmail.com">SPC</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, August 29, 2019 3:30 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org">tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>It's a bit funny (at least for me) because I was talking about DECNET as OSI standard and TCP/IP and OSI differences some days ago to the group of students of a course on network operation that I am teaching.</p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On the other hand I don't that book about networking. I'd like to get one copy bit I live in Spain. Shipment is not a problem but perhaps to deal with shipping procedures abroad is not what you have in mind :-)</p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße<br>-----<br>Sergio Pedraja<br><br>Senior Technician in Computer Science, Systems Administration, and Information Security. MBA. Qualified occupational trainer.</p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>El mié., 28 ago. 2019 20:24, Kurt H Maier &lt;<a href="mailto:khm@sciops.net">khm@sciops.net</a>&gt; escribió:</p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:4.8pt'>On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The great Mike Padlipski said &quot;do you want protocols that look nice or<br>&gt; protocols that work nice?&quot; in his fantastic book Elements of Networking<br>&gt; Style [*].<br>&gt; <br><br>This book taught me as much about navigating bureaucracy and the warning<br>signs of impending death-by-committee as it did about networking.&nbsp; I<br>keep a copy on my shelf at the office and annoy my staff with it<br>regularly.&nbsp; It's also a wonderful time capsule that provides a lot of<br>context about how we got where we are.<br><br>khm</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-08-30  9:32         ` Wesley Parish
  2019-08-30 13:59           ` Clem Cole
  2019-08-31 23:38         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2019-08-30  9:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Stevens; +Cc: tuhs

Well, fwiw, the Aeronautical Telecommunications Network (ATN) that was
being discussed in the late nineties and early noughties, was supposed
to be built on the OSI stack. I have no idea what happened with that,
whether it went ahead or got altered.

On 8/30/19, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> Although I never have seen OSI in the wild, it was the one great thing about
> ‘Winsock’ is that it worked over TCP/IP , IPX/SPX, AppletTalk and Decnet.
> It was fun to convert a BBS from being telnet to some ‘telnet over decnet’
> monster I built.
>
> Although I’m guessing OSI would have allowed for common ‘network’
> applications to use different network topologies?
>
> I really need to get OSF/1 2.0 installed.
<snip>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-30  9:32         ` Wesley Parish
@ 2019-08-30 13:59           ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-08-30 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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Besides DECnet, IIRC, in the USA the only semi-large (required) use of OSI
was for TOP [Technical Office Protocol] and MAP [manufacturing automation
protocol]  that GM and Boeing tried to ram down the industries virtual
throat.   At Masscomp, we had already built an OSI/X.25 interface for
Europe, but since I ran Datacom and these folks were definitely my target
customers for a real-time system, I had to listen to them.  I spent way too
many hours in GM and Boeing conference rooms dealing with it.   By memory,
the arguments for MAP over ethernet was the later was considered
'unpredictable', they claimed they all had to have fiber on the
manufacturing floor, and were convinced that TCP/IP had 'too much overhead'
for real-time automation.  I never really understood the justification of
why TOP was needed, other than there were a bunch of folks in both places
running DECnet and there was a huge level of NIH.

When I was at Masscomp, I don't think we ever sold many systems into GM.
But our stop-gap for Ford was to use Protean fiber-based boards on the
manufacturing floor and continued to run TCP on top it, and our traditional
Ethernet was just fine by them, "thank you."  Since Ford Aerospace was our
partner for building the new Mission Control at NASA (we ran redundant
ethernet there), they were already pretty familiar with our Ethernet and IP
stack products, so they took over working with the folks inside of Ford.
Shortly thereafter, Masscomp and Apollo won the bid for the Boeing 7J7
program (which became the 777 when it shipped).  The agreed (common)
interface between all three firms was Ethernet and IP.  [**]

I left for Stellar, but I don't think they ever built either the MAP/TOP or
any of the rest of the OSI stuff besides X.25, funny how they stopped
asking for it.  I still have a binder of all the TOP specs in my basement.






[**] An interesting factoid that I thought of while writing this reply.
One thing I learned from working with Boeing during that time is that until
that program, the C5A and the 747-400 were the only two airplanes that
could carry their documentation as a payload.  The paper required for the
FAA weighed that much.  One of the justifications of the 7J7 was they had
gotten approval from the FAA to make all of the documentation delivered
electronically.  It was the first plane they designed 100% using CAD and no
paper or other models.  Masscomp systems on the manufacturing floor, and
Apollo's in the engineering offices.

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<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Besides DECnet, IIRC, in the USA the only semi-large (required) use of OSI was for TOP [Technical Office Protocol] and MAP [manufacturing automation protocol]  that GM and Boeing tried to ram down the industries virtual throat.   At Masscomp, we had already built an OSI/X.25 interface for Europe, but since I ran Datacom and these folks were definitely my target customers for a real-time system, I had to listen to them.  I spent way too many hours in GM and Boeing conference rooms dealing with it.   By memory, the arguments for MAP over ethernet was the later was considered &#39;unpredictable&#39;, they claimed they all had to have fiber on the manufacturing floor, and were convinced that TCP/IP had &#39;too much overhead&#39; for real-time automation.  I never really understood the justification of why TOP was needed, other than there were a bunch of folks in both places running DECnet and there was a huge level of NIH.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">When I was at Masscomp, I don&#39;t think we ever sold many systems into GM.  But our stop-gap for Ford was to use Protean fiber-based boards on the manufacturing floor and continued to run TCP on top it, and our traditional Ethernet was just fine by them, &quot;thank you.&quot;  Since Ford Aerospace was our partner for building the new Mission Control at NASA (we ran redundant ethernet there), they were already pretty familiar with our Ethernet and IP stack products, so they took over working with the folks inside of Ford.  Shortly thereafter, Masscomp and Apollo won the bid for the Boeing 7J7 program (which became the 777 when it shipped).  The agreed (common)  interface between all three firms was Ethernet and IP.  [**]</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I left for Stellar, but I don&#39;t think they ever built either the MAP/TOP or any of the rest of the OSI stuff besides X.25, funny how they stopped asking for it.  I still have a binder of all the TOP specs in my basement.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[**] An interesting factoid that I thought of while writing this reply.  One thing I learned from working with Boeing during that time is that until that program, the C5A and the 747-400 were the only two airplanes that could carry their documentation as a payload.  The paper required for the FAA weighed that much.  One of the justifications of the 7J7 was they had gotten approval from the FAA to make all of the documentation delivered electronically.  It was the first plane they designed 100% using CAD and no paper or other models.  Masscomp systems on the manufacturing floor, and Apollo&#39;s in the engineering offices.</div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?)
  2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
  2019-08-30  9:32         ` Wesley Parish
@ 2019-08-31 23:38         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-08-31 23:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/29/19 8:54 AM, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Although I never have seen OSI in the wild, it was the one great thing 
> about ‘Winsock’ is that it worked over TCP/IP , IPX/SPX, AppletTalk and 
> Decnet.  It was fun to convert a BBS from being telnet to some ‘telnet 
> over decnet’ monster I built.

TUHS might not be the place, perhaps COFF is, but I'd be curious to hear 
more about your monster.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-08-28 16:50 [TUHS] ISO, OSI, and DECnet (was Re: If not Linux, then what?) Paul Winalski
2019-08-28 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2019-08-28 17:45   ` Jon Forrest
2019-08-28 17:50     ` Larry McVoy
2019-08-28 18:17   ` Kurt H Maier
2019-08-28 19:29     ` SPC
2019-08-29  0:29       ` George Michaelson
2019-08-29 14:54       ` Jason Stevens
2019-08-30  9:32         ` Wesley Parish
2019-08-30 13:59           ` Clem Cole
2019-08-31 23:38         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS

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