[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?

thx
jake
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Milo Velimirovic]

man clear

On Dec 30, 2014, at 4:56 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Larry McVoy]

Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 05:56:30PM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake

> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Warren Toomey]

2.11 BSD has clear (1).
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
Cheers Warren

On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>
>thx
>jake
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>TUHS mailing list
>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
of a c program.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
> Cheers Warren
>
> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>
>> thx
>> jake
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

cls is MS-DOS =p

clear is what it is in current *x, at least.

-uso.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dan Stromberg]

Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
- especially the "cl" entry.

ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
> of a c program.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>
>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>> Cheers Warren
>>
>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>
>>> thx
>>> jake
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent, 
tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.

Essentially:
     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from 
/etc/termcap
     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear" 
sequence
     tputs                                        outputs the "clear" 
sequence

On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
> - especially the "cl" entry.
>
> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
>> of a c program.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>> Cheers Warren
>>>
>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>
>>>> thx
>>>> jake
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

Mary, this is exactly what I needed -- good to go now; thank you!

As a side note: Man, what an intimidating can of braindamage I've opened! :)

thanks all!
jake

P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to spend a
little time programming rather than just playing video games when he's near
a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff and is honestly
interested when he understands it and sees it work -- and he even spotted a
bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to raise issues, pull requests,
etc. if you like -- I'm putting him through the git committing and pair
programming paces, so outside interaction would be kinda fun :)

P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..


On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent,
> tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.
>
> Essentially:
>     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from
> /etc/termcap
>     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear"
> sequence
>     tputs                                        outputs the "clear"
> sequence
>
>
> On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/
>> html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
>> - especially the "cl" entry.
>>
>> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the
>>> context
>>> of a c program.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>>> Cheers Warren
>>>>
>>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <
>>>> jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> thx
>>>>> jake
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I rtfm'ed )

[Derrik Walker v2.0]

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

> 
> P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> interaction would be kinda fun :)
> 
> 
> P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> 
I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?

Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc. 

BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
unfortunately, he lost interest. 

- Derrik 

[TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I rtfm'ed )

[Jacob Ritorto]

Hey, thanks, Derrik.
  I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;), but
I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh cc (Apple
LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)) and it throws
warnings about our not type-defining functions because you're apparently
supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it dutifully goes on to
assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly fine.  It does
unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we initially had,
though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being beautifully simple..

thx again for the encouragement!
jake


On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker at doomd.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>
> >
> > P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> > https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> > spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> > when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> > and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> > and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> > raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> > through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> > interaction would be kinda fun :)
> >
> >
> > P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> >
> I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?
>
> Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
> on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc.
>
> BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
> years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
> programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
> him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
> unfortunately, he lost interest.
>
> - Derrik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2014, Warren Toomey wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).

Ah, those were the days...  Program some luser's function keys, and, if 
necessary, execute them...

Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Dec 30, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
> but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

And speaking of kick-ass terminals, who else remembers chiselling emacs commands into the keyboard of an Ann Arbor Ambassador in 60x132 mode?!?  I loved that keyboard.  They could hear me pounding on it a mile down the road :-)

--lyndon

[TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I rtfm'ed )

[Derrik Walker v2.0]

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 01:16 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> Hey, thanks, Derrik.
>   I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;),
> but I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh
> cc (Apple LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn))
> and it throws warnings about our not type-defining functions because
> you're apparently supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it
> dutifully goes on to assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly
> fine.  It does unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we
> initially had, though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being
> beautifully simple..
> 
It compiles and runs with no warnings or any issues with gcc 4.9.2 on
Fedora 21.

Like so many x-gener Linux guys, I was a UNIX guy in the early '90's,
and just fell into Linux.  

So, you are running BSD 2.11, on a real PDP-11 ( or is it a VAX ),  in
your house? Or are you using an emulator? Either way, that's still
probably no small feat.

I have a Mac Plus emulator ( MiniVMac ) that I installed MachTen on,
just to see if I could get it running, and it works.

( MachTen is this odd sort of UNIX that was available for the Mac in the
'90's, that runs on top of Mac OS ).
> 
> thx again for the encouragement!
> jake
> 
No problem.  Anyone getting the younger ones into the older technology
is good! 

- Derrik 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 31 Dec 2014, at 06:36, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

If I remember they worked by talking to the framebuffer so they were happy to work with either.  By the same token they probably won't work on anything that's not a 1980s Sun framebuffer, sadly.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[arnold]

> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
find that. :-)

Arnold

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Milo Velimirovic]

It appears to be available here
http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/

On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

>> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
>> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> 
> It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> find that. :-)
> 
> Arnold
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

I loved my Ambassador!  Still have one.  I remember performing the 
"twisted mode" mod to be able to run it in 60x80 portrait mode, before 
Ann Arbor released a portrait product.

http://stargatemuseum.org/html/cubix_and_dumb_terminal.html

Forgive me if I didn't do a lot of EMACS on it, though.  :)

     Mary Ann

On 12/30/2014 10:36 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> And speaking of kick-ass terminals, who else remembers chiselling 
> emacs commands into the keyboard of an Ann Arbor Ambassador in 60x132 
> mode?!? I loved that keyboard. They could hear me pounding on it a 
> mile down the road :-) --lyndon 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Derrik Walker v2.0]

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> It appears to be available here
> http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> 
> On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > 
> > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> > find that. :-)
> >

I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
4.  

Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
to compile it.  

Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/

- Derrik 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Larry McVoy]

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:37:53PM -0500, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> > It appears to be available here
> > http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> > 
> > On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> > >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > > 
> > > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> > > find that. :-)
> > >
> 
> I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
> system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
> Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
> 4.  
> 
> Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
> to compile it.  
> 
> Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-SPARCstation-LX-/201238223990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edabb9c76

Not an IPX but it will sun sunos 4.x if I recall correctly.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

Jake - you have lots of help from others and using curses(3) is definitely
the right way to program.

But to answer your specific question about printf(string), according to
Chapter 3 (Programmer's Info) of my old VT-100 user's guide, I think what
is you are doing wrong is that "\033c" is not the ANSI clear to end of
screen command.

When I saw your message on my iPhone last night, the cache said - wait that
can't be correct.   But I could not remember why.   So I had to wait until
I got back home today to look in my basement.

As I suspected, it's not an ANSI sequence.  So are you running in VT-100
(ANSI) mode or VT52 mode?  I ask because it is close to the VT52 cursor
right command which is actually:  "\033C"  but I do not remember is case
mattered.

In VT52 mode you need to send the terminal:  "\033H\033J" to clear the
screen.

In ANSI mode, it becomes:  "\033[1;1\033[0J"

A few things to remember:
1.) Clear takes the current cursor position and clears from there to end of
X (where X depends on mode, and type of clear).  So you need to move the
cursor to home position (aka 1,1).

2.) VT-100's did not implement the full ANSI spec like Ann Arbor, Heathkit,
Wyse etc.  So there are a number of things that those terminals did
better.  A really good reason to you curses(3) because all the knowledge is
keep in the termcap and as a programmer you don't need to worry about it.

3.) I saw sites were VT52 mode was sometimes preferred because it was good
enough for most editing, and needed fewer chars to do manipulation.  On
slow serial lines, this sometimes was helpful.  That said, give me an AAA
any day.  Like others, I still miss that terminal. :-)

Clem

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>
> thx
> jake
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Erik E. Fair]

The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
manually entered.

	Erik <fair at netbsd.org>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's likely
why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and probably
why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)

Clem

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:

> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
> manually entered.
>
>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

I have at least one of these and some other old SPARCstations, keyboards,
mice, etc. here that could use a good home if you (or others on list) want
'em to run SunOS 4.1.3 or somesuch.  I think I have install media for that
OS as well.

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:37:53PM -0500, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> > On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> > > It appears to be available here
> > > http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> > >
> > > On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in
> source
> > > >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > > >
> > > > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you
> can
> > > > find that. :-)
> > > >
> >
> > I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
> > system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
> > Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
> > 4.
> >
> > Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
> > to compile it.
> >
> > Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-SPARCstation-LX-/201238223990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edabb9c76
>
> Not an IPX but it will sun sunos 4.x if I recall correctly.
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is currently
just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 hardware in various
states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely has a burned out power
supply and I haven't been able to fix it.

I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses clear,
but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things down.  So I'm
now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple escape string that
works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and just printf it.


On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's likely
> why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and probably
> why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>
> Clem
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
>> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>> manually entered.
>>
>>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>>
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

Jacob,

Are you just clearing the screen in an otherwise scroll-oriented 
program, or are you doing graphics by clearing and repainting a similar 
screen when something changes?

The termcap "cl" method is perfect for the former, but curses is better 
suited for the latter.

     Mary Ann

On 12/31/2014 02:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is 
> currently just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 
> hardware in various states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely 
> has a burned out power supply and I haven't been able to fix it.
>
> I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses 
> clear, but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things 
> down.  So I'm now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple 
> escape string that works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and 
> just printf it.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com 
> <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI,
>     that's likely why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100
>     programmers manual and probably why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>
>     Clem
>
>     On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair
>     <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org <mailto:fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>> wrote:
>
>         The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state"
>         which
>         happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>         frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>         manually entered.
>
>                 Erik <fair at netbsd.org <mailto:fair at netbsd.org>>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

Well, it's just me teaching my kid recursion in c, so it's kind of informal
and I'm just clearing the screen to repaint it a second later with
changes.  It's too bad that curses adds so much overhead.  I'll have to
compare the resultant a.outs to confirm exactly how much..  Not that it
matters for a play program, really, more of a curiosity..

Thanks again Mary Ann!

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

>  Jacob,
>
> Are you just clearing the screen in an otherwise scroll-oriented program,
> or are you doing graphics by clearing and repainting a similar screen when
> something changes?
>
> The termcap "cl" method is perfect for the former, but curses is better
> suited for the latter.
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
> On 12/31/2014 02:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>
>  I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is currently
> just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 hardware in various
> states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely has a burned out power
> supply and I haven't been able to fix it.
>
>  I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses clear,
> but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things down.  So I'm
> now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple escape string that
> works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and just printf it.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>>  Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's
>> likely why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and
>> probably why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>>
>>  Clem
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
>>> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>>> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>>> manually entered.
>>>
>>>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing listTUHS at minnie.tuhs.orghttps://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

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On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 5:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> CIT-101 from c.itoh

​I remember those, but I do not have a manual for it.
I reasonable guess is they tried to clone the VT-100 which means its ANSI
sequences but not full ANSI and lots of strangeness - Thank you to my old
friend Tom Kent who had a lot to do with the original FW and the keyboard.
In his defense, the ANSI sequences were not yet a standard when then
started that project.   So they took what they knew was going to be there,
add a ton of DEC specific stuff and the result is history.

BTW: If you even wanted to know why the original Masscomp keyboard worked
as it did, was because Tom had the "second systems effect" when he did the
MC-500  and I always tease him about it all the time - although unlike the
MC-500 you could not use the VT-100 as a weapon ;-)​

Anyway - I just looked in the original VT-100 programmer guide again and
could not find the sequence "\033c" defined in it.  So I'm >>guessing<< Tom
and team did not implement it, and thus c.itoh did not either when they
cloned it.
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