From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2022 01:18:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jun 2022 01:18:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49ED40922; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:17:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.167]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 545C84093A for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:17:40 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: bdc1f85a-f4ed-11ec-92d5-005056abbe64 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id bdc1f85a-f4ed-11ec-92d5-005056abbe64; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 03:17:26 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=MR1SmJXetHrYExqHA8lQjKzlfcp93X8e34DShGKtucc=; b=a2RXZMaLpdMKCjjFokPQvRre3YYX+NvclOUu5zQn0nmjLCA40QnyWYtog9CP3l4hT9CEmYoVKW47h fbfi6x/YPge8AwHjt2KRW9ktAi1n2y5NTTDteLvTs4UzgMSQcaNbJLHdiQsMKrgCXgOFShkvFvKZ3E 2xCLb6G/EOteDRm0= X-KPN-MID: 33|sxIbvVjn9WwwNCfwpiCAOpsb/1py6TZ89wrrLJ4x4sh0ar3i4QZfGKuSrfVHyZF +1+CJz4hs/T5bsp3fPcmBeHn6Z1oYrgzLAz2niKL/fT8= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|xlW9y3+Lhr1DjO91FVcBkWg0ILzew8OodWtIvuVRle887tKNAjHxKwVpEUPJb7X lA13t7HxdOzjbnWb1JXAzNg== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id be2ae590-f4ed-11ec-929b-005056ab1411; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 03:17:28 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 03:17:27 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1420AC1D-8AD7-43C7-8F8B-22E1708846EF@planet.nl> References: <2803DC51-6CBC-4257-B40C-8A559C27CAE3@planet.nl> <20220625230939.GG19404@mcvoy.com> To: Rob Pike X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: 3O7QRJZ5QRHFO7ZBHSNKVYYUNABNW5GW X-Message-ID-Hash: 3O7QRJZ5QRHFO7ZBHSNKVYYUNABNW5GW X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Research Datakit notes List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 26 Jun 2022, at 01:57, Rob Pike wrote: >=20 > One of the things we liked about Datakit was that the computer didn't = have to establish the connection before it could reject the call, unlike = TCP/IP where all validation happens after the connection is made. This = is also why sockets and Datakit never worked together; sockets pretty = much assume Ethernet-like connection rules. >=20 > I am not a networking expert, but to me in this regard at least = Datakit seemed like a prettier picture. I suppose you can DOS-attack the = network, but not the machines. Datakit had other issues, for sure, like = the expensive racks of hardware, but then that's because, for better and = worse, it was designed by phone engineers rather than.... however you'd = characterize Ethernet and its original "I scream while listening to your = whisper", 5V into 50=E2=84=A6 Schmidt-triggered craziness. Ethernet's = come a long way, but the engineering of the original Radio Shack parts = was not favored by the Bell Labs crowd. I was not putting Datakit down, just trying to explain why the V8 = approach to networking may seem a little odd from a 1980=E2=80=99s = TCP/IP perspective, but makes perfect sense from a Datakit perspective. In the end technology often becomes a hybrid of various solutions, and = maybe in this case as well. By coincidence there was a post in the = Internet History mailing list earlier today that appears to make this = point. In his video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DojRtJ1U6Qzw), Sandy = explains why he became dissatisfied with Spider and the main reason was = that doing switching/routing on a mini computer was just plain = inefficient as compared to a telephone switch (at 37:06). This was 1972. = The result was a new design, Datakit, that could route/switch packets at = high speed and in parallel. On the internet history list, someone quipped: "Yeah, back then the joke = was that McQuillan was the only one making money from ATM. :-) That did = change in a big way (for a while) in the late 90s and early 2000s, = before router silicon caught up." To this Craig Partridge responded: "Wasn't just router silicon -- it was = router design. What made ATM appealing is that it made the inside of = the router or switch parallel, which was necessary to push into = multigigabit rates. Folks had to figure out how to rework an Internet = router to be parallel and it took at least two major innovations: = fully-standalone forwarding tables with associating forwarding engines = and breaking packets apart (essentially into cells), squirting those = parts through the parallel backplane, and then reassembling the packet = at the outbound interface for transmission." This was around 2000. It is not my field of expertise, but it would seem to me that Sandy had = figured out a core problem some 30 years before the TCP/IP world would = come up with a similar solution. I would not even be surprised if I = learned that modern telco routers transparantly set up virtual circuits = for tcp traffic.