* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna @ 2016-11-28 0:11 Norman Wilson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Norman Wilson @ 2016-11-28 0:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Larry McVoy: I've always morned that he died so early. I would have liked to talk to him, I love troff to this day. ==== Me too (s/morn/mourn/, of course). I might even have had the chance to work with him. The original UNIX crowd were all really neat characters, albeit sometimes a trifle overly characterful. All nice guys to work with, too, at least those who were still around when I was at 1127. Norman Wilson Toronto ON ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna @ 2017-11-27 22:05 Dave Horsfall 2017-11-28 0:06 ` Ron Natalie 2017-11-28 0:14 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2017-11-27 22:05 UTC (permalink / raw) We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, and was responsible for "roff" and its descendants. Remember him, the next time you see "jfo" in Unix documentation. -- Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-27 22:05 Dave Horsfall @ 2017-11-28 0:06 ` Ron Natalie 2017-11-28 0:15 ` Larry McVoy 2017-11-28 0:14 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Ron Natalie @ 2017-11-28 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw) 1977 marks my entry into the world of UNIX. I've always stated there was only one person who truly understood nroff and he was dead. I mourn the fact that of all the UNIX greats I've met, I missed out on Ossanna. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-28 0:06 ` Ron Natalie @ 2017-11-28 0:15 ` Larry McVoy [not found] ` <20171129190055.9ZFVf%steffen@sdaoden.eu> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-11-28 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) I think one could argue that James Clark has a pretty good handle on roff (having written the GNU version of nroff/troff/tbl/eqn/pic etc). On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 07:06:51PM -0500, Ron Natalie wrote: > 1977 marks my entry into the world of UNIX. I've always stated there was > only one person who truly understood nroff and he was dead. > I mourn the fact that of all the UNIX greats I've met, I missed out on > Ossanna. > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
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* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna [not found] ` <20171129190055.9ZFVf%steffen@sdaoden.eu> @ 2017-11-30 2:48 ` Larry McVoy 2017-11-30 15:44 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-11-30 2:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 08:00:55PM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > |On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 07:06:51PM -0500, Ron Natalie wrote: > |> 1977 marks my entry into the world of UNIX. I've always stated there was > |> only one person who truly understood nroff and he was dead. > |> I mourn the fact that of all the UNIX greats I've met, I missed out on > |> Ossanna. > > |I think one could argue that James Clark has a pretty good handle on > |roff (having written the GNU version of nroff/troff/tbl/eqn/pic etc). > > And Werner Lemberg, who carried the torch for the last almost two > decades. He brought in some really great improvements, like > arguments for strings, which allows to write pretty much TeX like > a.k.a. inline if you want to (as in "this is \*[I talic] text"). Yep. James exited stage left and Werner stepped in. I mean no disrespect to anyone, I was just saying that James has a really good handle on roff, he redid it all. I admire him for doing so (even though I curse the fact that he did it in C++). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-30 2:48 ` Larry McVoy @ 2017-11-30 15:44 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-11-30 20:43 ` Noel Hunt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-11-30 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: |On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 08:00:55PM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: |>|On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 07:06:51PM -0500, Ron Natalie wrote: |>|> 1977 marks my entry into the world of UNIX. I've always stated \ |>|> there was |>|> only one person who truly understood nroff and he was dead. |>|> I mourn the fact that of all the UNIX greats I've met, I missed out on |>|> Ossanna. |> |>|I think one could argue that James Clark has a pretty good handle on |>|roff (having written the GNU version of nroff/troff/tbl/eqn/pic etc). |> |> And Werner Lemberg, who carried the torch for the last almost two |> decades. He brought in some really great improvements, like |> arguments for strings, which allows to write pretty much TeX like |> a.k.a. inline if you want to (as in "this is \*[I talic] text"). | |Yep. James exited stage left and Werner stepped in. I mean no disrespect |to anyone, I was just saying that James has a really good handle on roff, |he redid it all. I admire him for doing so (even though I curse the fact |that he did it in C++). The original source was no free code back then, so he did it for the free and open software world. Thankfully. And i do not know, i mean C++ was in 1989-1992, when he did most of the work as far as i can tell from a shallow look, a class, later template extension layer for plain C, not that overly huge stands-by-itself monster that i call it now. I am absolutely in favour and a of classes and objects, the encapsulation they provide, the method-on-object rather than object-on-function that you have with C. (Multiple) Inheritance including automatic upcasts (to the given parent). Virtual function pointer tables, automatically managed. And "simple" templates. For example, myself, in the process of creating my own fork, can write (globbering the global namespace) color &assign_rgb(rf_ui32 r, rf_ui32 g, rf_ui32 b){ m_scheme = scheme_rgb; return set_red(r).set_green(g).set_blue(b); } color &set_red(rf_ui32 c){ rf_ASSERT(scheme() == scheme_rgb); m_comps[0] = rf_min(c, max_val); return *this; } ... instead of rf_color *rf_color_assign_rgb(rf_color *self, rf_ui32 r, ....){ self->c_scheme = rf_COLOR_SCHEME_RGB; self->c_comps[0] = rf_MIN(r, rf_COLOR_MAX_VAL); ... return self; } and programming all that out over and over again. (Or using macros with side-effects. Or relying on inline functions.) And that is a simple object with a short name. References are unfortunate in my opinion, but you will not see any light if you try doing C++ without them because they are omnipresent for core functionality like standard copy constructors etc. Like many other things, including the complete departure from an underlaying C standard. C++03/C99 or so i would have appreciated. But as long as -fno-rtti -fno-exceptions is possible i can somehow live with it. (Let aside the fact that i have to live with it no matter what bloat the C++ standard introduces next.) And then C is not what it was no more, too, and unfortunately the usage-makes-fun guideline from what Plan9 documents and extends onto ISO C89 was not what the ISO C people looked at when they did. Well. Maybe if he would have known what C++ ends up as he would have used C instead? That would be an interesting question. Myself i currently appreciate coming back to a C++ codebase, however, because thinking in objects is my personal way of dealing with programming, that is how i really got used to it, anyway. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-30 15:44 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-11-30 20:43 ` Noel Hunt 2017-11-30 22:36 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Noel Hunt @ 2017-11-30 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw) If you want to see a nice use of a restricted subset of C++, that is, code written in the early days before the accretion of hideous excrescences, I highly recommend Tom Cargill's 'pads'. You will find it in the 10th Edition distributions. It is a typical blit-style program, with a 'terminal' and 'host' portion, the 'host' portion being written in the said restricted, earlier form of C++. The 'terminal' part is in C (this is the graphics front-end) but written for the blit. There was an OpenLook port by Dave Kowolski, and I have a version that runs under Plan9 (via Russ Cox's plan9port)---there is a straight-forward mapping of blit graphics operations to the Plan9 model. Noel Hunt On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 2:44 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote: > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > |On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 08:00:55PM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > |> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > |>|On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 07:06:51PM -0500, Ron Natalie wrote: > |>|> 1977 marks my entry into the world of UNIX. I've always stated \ > |>|> there was > |>|> only one person who truly understood nroff and he was dead. > |>|> I mourn the fact that of all the UNIX greats I've met, I missed out > on > |>|> Ossanna. > |> > |>|I think one could argue that James Clark has a pretty good handle on > |>|roff (having written the GNU version of nroff/troff/tbl/eqn/pic etc). > |> > |> And Werner Lemberg, who carried the torch for the last almost two > |> decades. He brought in some really great improvements, like > |> arguments for strings, which allows to write pretty much TeX like > |> a.k.a. inline if you want to (as in "this is \*[I talic] text"). > | > |Yep. James exited stage left and Werner stepped in. I mean no > disrespect > |to anyone, I was just saying that James has a really good handle on roff, > |he redid it all. I admire him for doing so (even though I curse the fact > |that he did it in C++). > > The original source was no free code back then, so he did it for > the free and open software world. Thankfully. And i do not know, > i mean C++ was in 1989-1992, when he did most of the work as far > as i can tell from a shallow look, a class, later template > extension layer for plain C, not that overly huge stands-by-itself > monster that i call it now. > > I am absolutely in favour and a of classes and objects, the > encapsulation they provide, the method-on-object rather than > object-on-function that you have with C. (Multiple) Inheritance > including automatic upcasts (to the given parent). Virtual > function pointer tables, automatically managed. And "simple" > templates. For example, myself, in the process of creating my own > fork, can write (globbering the global namespace) > > color &assign_rgb(rf_ui32 r, rf_ui32 g, rf_ui32 b){ > m_scheme = scheme_rgb; > return set_red(r).set_green(g).set_blue(b); > } > color &set_red(rf_ui32 c){ > rf_ASSERT(scheme() == scheme_rgb); > m_comps[0] = rf_min(c, max_val); > return *this; > } > ... > > instead of > > rf_color *rf_color_assign_rgb(rf_color *self, rf_ui32 r, ....){ > self->c_scheme = rf_COLOR_SCHEME_RGB; > self->c_comps[0] = rf_MIN(r, rf_COLOR_MAX_VAL); > ... > return self; > } > > and programming all that out over and over again. (Or using > macros with side-effects. Or relying on inline functions.) > And that is a simple object with a short name. > References are unfortunate in my opinion, but you will not see any > light if you try doing C++ without them because they are > omnipresent for core functionality like standard copy constructors > etc. Like many other things, including the complete departure > from an underlaying C standard. C++03/C99 or so i would have > appreciated. But as long as -fno-rtti -fno-exceptions is possible > i can somehow live with it. (Let aside the fact that i have to > live with it no matter what bloat the C++ standard introduces > next.) And then C is not what it was no more, too, and > unfortunately the usage-makes-fun guideline from what Plan9 > documents and extends onto ISO C89 was not what the ISO C people > looked at when they did. Well. > > Maybe if he would have known what C++ ends up as he would have > used C instead? That would be an interesting question. Myself > i currently appreciate coming back to a C++ codebase, however, > because thinking in objects is my personal way of dealing with > programming, that is how i really got used to it, anyway. > > --steffen > | > |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > |(By Robert Gernhardt) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171201/2bdd154e/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-30 20:43 ` Noel Hunt @ 2017-11-30 22:36 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-11-30 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Noel Hunt <noel.hunt at gmail.com> wrote: |If you want to see a nice use of a restricted subset of C++, |that is, code written in the early days before the accretion |of hideous excrescences, I highly recommend Tom Cargill's |'pads'. You will find it in the 10th Edition distributions. I downloaded it from [1] [1] http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus/application/application/pi_pads_libj.tgz |It is a typical blit-style program, with a 'terminal' and |'host' portion, the 'host' portion being written in the said |restricted, earlier form of C++. Yes, that package looks good. Two nice things in 5 minutes: if( !this ) return 0; I would like to read "references are needless" into that. // C++ bug (Action) Yes! That is exactly my gut feeling, too! Interestingly it seems that it has been possible to apply access policies on file level, even for preprocessor things etc.: >pri #define PADS_VERSION 0x851021 /* YYMMDD */ #define CARTE 0x80 #define NUMERIC 1 > That i never had seen before. Quite a lot of C++ in this package.. |The 'terminal' part is in C (this is the graphics front-end) |but written for the blit. There was an OpenLook port by Dave |Kowolski, and I have a version that runs under Plan9 (via |Russ Cox's plan9port)---there is a straight-forward mapping |of blit graphics operations to the Plan9 model. | |Noel Hunt In V10 there are the sources of cfront, and also troff, pic etc. I would wish i had more time to look through that. Most code from these laboratories and universities is just casual, this is what i like so much. I mean, really. Most of the elder code goes like about LayerReshaped(); MOUSEServe(); KBDServe(); RCVServe(); and is done with it When i started, as well as today, notational things for namespace and (get, set) functions were in use for at least libraries, and then i found C++ preferable over C due to "using NAME" directives etc., whereas in C you go for g_mount_tracker_find_by_mount_spec() and woe if the argument is "a subclass". And pi is really a debugger!? I detest debuggers! But he instrumented most of it with trace() and VOK by hand in order to debug that thing. That is fantastic. I dislike so much that today shipout code of even the smallest utility is compiled with stack canaries enabled, the assembly looks infested, all that should be kept in debug code, in my opinion. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2017-11-27 22:05 Dave Horsfall 2017-11-28 0:06 ` Ron Natalie @ 2017-11-28 0:14 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-11-28 0:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Indeed. As a big roff fan, not having had the chance to meet him is a bummer, might have been fun. On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 09:05:19AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, > and was responsible for "roff" and its descendants. Remember him, the next > time you see "jfo" in Unix documentation. > > -- > Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna @ 2016-11-27 22:15 Dave Horsfall 2016-11-27 22:17 ` Ron Natalie 2016-11-27 22:28 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2016-11-27 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw) We lost J.F.Ossanna in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, and was responsible for "roff" and its descendants. Remember him, the next time you see "jfo" in documentation. -- Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2016-11-27 22:15 Dave Horsfall @ 2016-11-27 22:17 ` Ron Natalie 2016-11-27 22:28 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Ron Natalie @ 2016-11-27 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Yes, he had died by the time I knew what UNIX was. My jest was always that there was only one person who truly understood troff and he was dead. -----Original Message----- From: TUHS [mailto:tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Dave Horsfall Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 5:15 PM To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Subject: [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna We lost J.F.Ossanna in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, and was responsible for "roff" and its descendants. Remember him, the next time you see "jfo" in documentation. -- Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna 2016-11-27 22:15 Dave Horsfall 2016-11-27 22:17 ` Ron Natalie @ 2016-11-27 22:28 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2016-11-27 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw) I've always morned that he died so early. I would have liked to talk to him, I love troff to this day. On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 09:15:00AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > We lost J.F.Ossanna in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, and was > responsible for "roff" and its descendants. Remember him, the next time > you see "jfo" in documentation. > > -- > Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-11-30 22:36 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2016-11-28 0:11 [TUHS] RIP J.F.Ossanna Norman Wilson -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2017-11-27 22:05 Dave Horsfall 2017-11-28 0:06 ` Ron Natalie 2017-11-28 0:15 ` Larry McVoy [not found] ` <20171129190055.9ZFVf%steffen@sdaoden.eu> 2017-11-30 2:48 ` Larry McVoy 2017-11-30 15:44 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-11-30 20:43 ` Noel Hunt 2017-11-30 22:36 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-11-28 0:14 ` Larry McVoy 2016-11-27 22:15 Dave Horsfall 2016-11-27 22:17 ` Ron Natalie 2016-11-27 22:28 ` Larry McVoy
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