From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id a909f40f for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 925A7A26E9; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 03:33:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEAAA26D4; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 03:33:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3002AA26D4; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 03:33:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from zimbra.anteil.com (zimbra.anteil.com [67.110.179.138]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DEE93FC6 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 03:33:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.anteil.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EDD1017E for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from zimbra.anteil.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.anteil.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7OETvIIXpm95 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from zimbra.anteil.com (zimbra.anteil.com [192.168.1.22]) by zimbra.anteil.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC541017A for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:33:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:33:15 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Capp To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Message-ID: <14895316.657.1542389595317.JavaMail.root@zimbraanteil> In-Reply-To: <20181116171318.GC30000@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_656_27362312.1542389595317" X-Originating-IP: [192.168.200.43] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.7_GA_2476.RHEL4 (ZimbraWebClient - SAF3 (Linux)/6.0.7_GA_2473.UBUNTU8) Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" ------=_Part_656_27362312.1542389595317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 11:55:28AM -0500, Paul Winalski wrote: >> On 11/16/18, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: >> > On 11/15/2018 10:32 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> >> The Unix manpage format is the epitome of perfection; they tell you >> >> everything you need to know, and in the right order. Frequently I >> >> cannot recall a particular flag (but I know what it does), and it's >> >> right there at the start. >> > >> > I think man pages make a great reference. But I don't think they are a >> > good teaching source for someone that doesn't know the material or what >> > the components are for. >> > >> I agree with Grant. If you want to know what a particular command >> does and what its options are, man pages are fantastic. If you are a >> new or casual user trying to find out what command(s) to use to .> accomplish a particular task, the man pages are an exercise in. >> frustration and futility. Other OSes have done a better job in that >> area (the VMS and DTSS HELP commands come to mind). IMO ideally one >> should have both--a generalized "help" command for those trying to >> find out what command to use, and "man" as reference material. UNIX >> and Linux have never had a proper help facility. Or at least I never >> was able to find it. > >I think there was a help at one point but it got lost. PWB maybe? >There is still apropos which can be useful. > >What helped me starting out was one of those trifold summaries of >common commands. > >ls for directory listings? Very poor choice for newbies but pleasant >once you know it is there. Short is nice for common stuff. > >I just remember a steep learning curve initially. But you got over >it pretty quickly and then things were pleasant. I found the Unix >docs to be great but hard to figure where things were at first. >Once you were past that, smooth sailing. PWB was great too, but what was most useful to me was the "UNIX programmer's manual" from Bell Telephone Laboratories (c) 1979, 1983 The first volume included all the man pages, a quick reference, and an index. The second volume contained all the "how to" guides, including concise summaries of the facilities available on UNIX, the original UNIX paper from Ritchie and Thompson, UNIX for Beginners from Kernighan, NROFF/TROFF User's Manual, TROFF Tutorial, C Programming Language, Lint, Make, YACC, LEX, AWK, and on and on. The combination of those two volumes was invaluable. ------=_Part_656_27362312.1542389595317 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'= >>On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 11:55:28AM -0500, Paul Winalski wrote:
>= > On 11/16/18, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:=
>> > On 11/15/2018 10:32 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> = >> The Unix manpage format is the epitome of perfection; they tell yo= u
>> >> everything you need to know, and in the right order.=  Frequently I
>> >> cannot recall a particular flag (b= ut I know what it does), and it's
>> >> right there at the s= tart.
>> >
>> > I think man pages make a great refe= rence.  But I don't think they are a
>> > good teaching so= urce for someone that doesn't know the material or what
>> > th= e components are for.
>> >
>> I agree with Grant. &nbs= p;If you want to know what a particular command
>> does and what i= ts options are, man pages are fantastic.  If you are a
>> new= or casual user trying to find out what command(s) to use to
.> accom= plish a particular task, the man pages are an exercise in.
>> frus= tration and futility.  Other OSes have done a better job in that
&g= t;> area (the VMS and DTSS HELP commands come to mind).  IMO ideall= y one
>> should have both--a generalized "help" command for those = trying to
>> find out what command to use, and "man" as reference = material.  UNIX
>> and Linux have never had a proper help fac= ility.  Or at least I never
>> was able to find it.
>>I think there was a help at one point but it got lost.  PWB mayb= e?
>There is still apropos which can be useful.
>
>What h= elped me starting out was one of those trifold summaries of
>common c= ommands.
>
>ls for directory listings?  Very poor choice f= or newbies but pleasant
>once you know it is there.  Short is ni= ce for common stuff.
>
>I just remember a steep learning curve = initially.  But you got over
>it pretty quickly and then things = were pleasant.  I found the Unix
>docs to be great but hard to f= igure where things were at first.
>Once you were past that, smooth s= ailing.

PWB was great too, but what was most useful = to me was the
"UNIX programmer's manual" from Bell Telephone Labo= ratories (c) 1979, 1983

The first volume included = all the man pages, a quick reference, and an index.

The second volume contained all the "how to" guides, including concise su= mmaries
of the facilities available on UNIX, the original UNIX pa= per from Ritchie and Thompson,
UNIX for Beginners from Kernighan,= NROFF/TROFF User's Manual, TROFF Tutorial,
C Programming Languag= e, Lint, Make, YACC, LEX, AWK, and on and on.

The = combination of those two volumes was invaluable.

<= br>
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