[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Doug McIlroy]

Glob was an an accident. When Ken and Dennis wanted to put wildcards
(an anachronistic word--it wasn't used in the Unix lab at the time)
into the shell, there wasn't room, so they came up with the clever hack
of calling another process to do the work.

I have always understood that glob meant global because commands like
	rm *
would be applied to every file in a directory. A relationship to ed's
g command was clear, but not primary in my mind.

One curious fact is that from day one the word hase been pronounced glob,
not globe. (By contrast, creat has been variously pronounced cree-at
and create.)  It is also interesting to speculate on whether there would
be a glob library routine in Linux had glob only been an identifier in
sh.c rather than an entry in /bin.

I believe the simple * was borrowed from somewhere else. If the g command
had been the driving model, glob would probably have had ? and ?*, not
? and *. (It couldn't use ed's . because . was ubiquitous in file names.)

My etymology is somewhat different from Steve's. But I never asked the
originator(s). Steve, did you?

Doug

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Arthur Krewat]

TOPS-10 came out as "MONITOR" in 1967, and while I'm not sure it started 
out with * and ?, it definitely had it early on.

Not saying TOPS-10 was the originator of *, but it was certainly around 
in at least one other operating system.

On 7/9/2017 8:26 AM, Doug McIlroy wrote:
> I believe the simple * was borrowed from somewhere else. If the g command
> had been the driving model, glob would probably have had ? and ?*, not
> ? and *. (It couldn't use ed's . because . was ubiquitous in file names.)
>

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Steve Johnson]

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I never asked the originators.  In fact, I don't think I've ever used
glob outside of the shell...

It's interesting to contemplate how the world might be different if we
had used regular expressions consistently in the shell as well as the
editor(s).  We could have picked some other character like : to
indicate the file extension.   I suspect we would have had regular
expressions built into all kinds of things...

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McIlroy" <doug@cs.dartmouth.edu>
To:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Cc:
Sent:Sun, 09 Jul 2017 08:26:56 -0400
Subject:Re: [TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

 Glob was an an accident. When Ken and Dennis wanted to put wildcards
 (an anachronistic word--it wasn't used in the Unix lab at the time)
 into the shell, there wasn't room, so they came up with the clever
hack
 of calling another process to do the work.

 I have always understood that glob meant global because commands like
 rm *
 would be applied to every file in a directory. A relationship to ed's
 g command was clear, but not primary in my mind.

 One curious fact is that from day one the word hase been pronounced
glob,
 not globe. (By contrast, creat has been variously pronounced cree-at
 and create.) It is also interesting to speculate on whether there
would
 be a glob library routine in Linux had glob only been an identifier
in
 sh.c rather than an entry in /bin.

 I believe the simple * was borrowed from somewhere else. If the g
command
 had been the driving model, glob would probably have had ? and ?*,
not
 ? and *. (It couldn't use ed's . because . was ubiquitous in file
names.)

 My etymology is somewhat different from Steve's. But I never asked
the
 originator(s). Steve, did you?

 Doug

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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[ron minnich]

back when glob was a separate binary it was pretty easy to spawn glob from
things other than the shell, which was kind of neat. You'd get shell
globbing in anything. But jamming globbing into the shell was overall
probably a good thing ...

ron

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 7:53 AM Steve Johnson <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:

> I never asked the originators.  In fact, I don't think I've ever used glob
> outside of the shell...
>
> It's interesting to contemplate how the world might be different if we had
> used regular expressions consistently in the shell as well as the
> editor(s).  We could have picked some other character like : to indicate
> the file extension.   I suspect we would have had regular expressions built
> into all kinds of things...
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> "Doug McIlroy" <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu>
>
> To:
> <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Cc:
>
> Sent:
> Sun, 09 Jul 2017 08:26:56 -0400
>
>
> Subject:
> Re: [TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'
>
>
> Glob was an an accident. When Ken and Dennis wanted to put wildcards
> (an anachronistic word--it wasn't used in the Unix lab at the time)
> into the shell, there wasn't room, so they came up with the clever hack
> of calling another process to do the work.
>
> I have always understood that glob meant global because commands like
> rm *
> would be applied to every file in a directory. A relationship to ed's
> g command was clear, but not primary in my mind.
>
> One curious fact is that from day one the word hase been pronounced glob,
> not globe. (By contrast, creat has been variously pronounced cree-at
> and create.) It is also interesting to speculate on whether there would
> be a glob library routine in Linux had glob only been an identifier in
> sh.c rather than an entry in /bin.
>
> I believe the simple * was borrowed from somewhere else. If the g command
> had been the driving model, glob would probably have had ? and ?*, not
> ? and *. (It couldn't use ed's . because . was ubiquitous in file names.)
>
> My etymology is somewhat different from Steve's. But I never asked the
> originator(s). Steve, did you?
>
> Doug
>
>
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> TOPS-10 came out as "MONITOR" in 1967, and while I'm not sure it started 
> out with * and ?, it definitely had it early on.
> 
> Not saying TOPS-10 was the originator of *, but it was certainly around 
> in at least one other operating system.

I vaguely remember something like "PIP *.TXT *.OLD" to rename files (the 
"*" was interpreted by the command itself, not the interpreter).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[ron minnich]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 2:29 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

>
>
> I vaguely remember something like "PIP *.TXT *.OLD" to rename files (the
> "*" was interpreted by the command itself, not the interpreter).
>
>
All the DEC-10 and 11 operating systems I used had that wildcard, as well
as IIRC even the PDP-8, maybe someone can confirm the -8.

It would have been nice had RE's been the standard way to glob files, but,
that said, when I mention .*\.c to people instead of *.c they don't much
like it.

ron
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Chris Torek]

>It would have been nice had RE's been the standard way to glob
>files, but, that said, when I mention .*\.c to people instead of
>*.c they don't much like it.

Regular expressions are more powerful than glob, but much
harder to use correctly.  People who have not had exposure
to them get them wrong all the time.  The most common mistakes,
in my experience, are or include:

  - Forgetting to quote ".": "pat.h" accidentally matches
    file "patch"!  This should read "pat\.h" (but see next
    point).

  - Forgetting to anchor expressions on left and/or right:
    "x\.c" matches "x.cc".  This should read "x\.c$" (or even
    "^x\.c$" or perhaps ".*/x\.c$").

(It's also sometimes difficult to know whether your expression
will be given the full -- in which case, relative or absolute? --
path, or just a single pathname component.)

Mercurial allows both regexp and glob matches in .hgignore files
(and other places), while Git allows only globs.  Moreover, this
is the *default* in Mercurial.  Both are a bit surprising since
Git usually goes straight for the hard-to-use, fully-general case
instead of introducing users with the easy case, while Mercurial
is pretty good about starting off gently and only then getting you
into the deeper complexities if required.

(Mercurial used to execute regexps much faster than globs, as
well, so Kurt Lidl was always transforming my simple glob matches
to regexps.  We both got them wrong sometimes, although I like to
think I got them right more often.  I *think* the performance
issues are long since fixed, but I use Mercurial much less these
days.)

Chris

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Bakul Shah]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 17:31:24 PDT Chris Torek <torek at torek.net> wrote:
> >It would have been nice had RE's been the standard way to glob
> >files, but, that said, when I mention .*\.c to people instead of
> >*.c they don't much like it.
> 
> Regular expressions are more powerful than glob, but much
> harder to use correctly.  People who have not had exposure
> to them get them wrong all the time.  The most common mistakes,
> in my experience, are or include:
> 
>   - Forgetting to quote ".": "pat.h" accidentally matches
>     file "patch"!  This should read "pat\.h" (but see next
>     point).
> 
>   - Forgetting to anchor expressions on left and/or right:
>     "x\.c" matches "x.cc".  This should read "x\.c$" (or even
>     "^x\.c$" or perhaps ".*/x\.c$").

Also note that . in regexp doesn't match \n, while ? and * in a
glob expression do. Unix filenames can not contain \0 and /
but everything else is allowed.

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Random832]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017, at 17:29, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2017, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> > TOPS-10 came out as "MONITOR" in 1967, and while I'm not sure it started 
> > out with * and ?, it definitely had it early on.
> > 
> > Not saying TOPS-10 was the originator of *, but it was certainly around 
> > in at least one other operating system.
> 
> I vaguely remember something like "PIP *.TXT *.OLD" to rename files (the 
> "*" was interpreted by the command itself, not the interpreter).

"Rename" and "copy" still do that today on windows, with their own
unique rules for how the pattern on the right is interpreted (a ? or *
will take characters from the same position in the source file's name,
more or less, and a dot will advance to a dot in the source filename.
More at
https://superuser.com/questions/475874/how-does-the-windows-rename-command-interpret-wildcards
including some nuances I hadn't been aware of before)

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Random832]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017, at 08:26, Doug McIlroy wrote:
> It is also interesting to speculate on whether there would
> be a glob library routine in Linux had glob only been an identifier in
> sh.c rather than an entry in /bin.

I'm not sure - wordexp exists, and that was never a separate program.
Both first appeared in POSIX.2, as far as I can tell. They appear in
4.4BSD but not any earlier version of BSD, and not that I can find in
System V. The implementation in OpenSolaris is not SysV-derived. This
suggests to me that they were invented by the committee.

The first appearance of "fnmatch" in the Google archive of Usenet is a
1986 post about a library routine for Amiga (accompanied by a vaguely
glob-like "wildexp", and also DOS-style "findfirst/findnext") . The
first Unix-related appearance was a 1990 article about the progress of
the POSIX.2 standard itself.

I suppose it's possible that without the memory of a "glob" utility, a
findfirst/findnext-style routine might have been implemented instead (or
just findnext - findfirst would be equivalent to opendir+findnext).

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Norman Wilson]

Doug McIlroy:

  One curious fact is that from day one the word hase been pronounced glob,
  not globe. (By contrast, creat has been variously pronounced cree-at
  and create.)

=====

On the other hand, the UNIX Room pronunciation of `cron' rhymed with
bone, not with spawn.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Paul Winalski]

I was merely pointing out that the term 'glob' as a shortened form of
'global' predates UNIX, as does the concept of simple wildcard
matching that was later expanded into regular expression syntax.

-Paul W.


On 7/8/17, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:
> You are correct. Woops.
>
> Sorry I left that part out. Was just replying to whoever said there was
> a GLOB in TOPS-10.
>
>
> On 7/8/2017 1:03 PM, Random832 wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017, at 19:00, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>>>   From GLOB.MAC, TOPS-10 circa 1988 (not sure what version that is):
>>>
>>> TITLE   GLOB -- GLOBAL CROSS-REFERENCE DIRECTORY LISTING
>>>
>>> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=glob.mac
>>>
>>> Earliest version in that archive, 7-19-1975 but there are copyright
>>> dates going back to 1968
>>>
>>> ;COPYRIGHT 1968,1969,1970,1971,1972, DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP., MAYNARD,
>>> MASS.
>> Looking at the help file, it looks like this is more about global
>> symbols in object files (i.e. something analogous to nm)
>>
>> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/red405a2/11/unsupported/glob.hlp.html
>>
>> The list of options matches the ones in swtab/sw1tab in the code, so
>> this is the same tool.
>>
>
>

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Arthur Krewat]

You are correct. Woops.

Sorry I left that part out. Was just replying to whoever said there was 
a GLOB in TOPS-10.


On 7/8/2017 1:03 PM, Random832 wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017, at 19:00, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>>   From GLOB.MAC, TOPS-10 circa 1988 (not sure what version that is):
>>
>> TITLE   GLOB -- GLOBAL CROSS-REFERENCE DIRECTORY LISTING
>>
>> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=glob.mac
>>
>> Earliest version in that archive, 7-19-1975 but there are copyright
>> dates going back to 1968
>>
>> ;COPYRIGHT 1968,1969,1970,1971,1972, DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP., MAYNARD,
>> MASS.
> Looking at the help file, it looks like this is more about global
> symbols in object files (i.e. something analogous to nm)
>
> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/red405a2/11/unsupported/glob.hlp.html
>
> The list of options matches the ones in swtab/sw1tab in the code, so
> this is the same tool.
>

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Random832]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017, at 19:00, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>  From GLOB.MAC, TOPS-10 circa 1988 (not sure what version that is):
> 
> TITLE   GLOB -- GLOBAL CROSS-REFERENCE DIRECTORY LISTING
> 
> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=glob.mac
> 
> Earliest version in that archive, 7-19-1975 but there are copyright 
> dates going back to 1968
> 
> ;COPYRIGHT 1968,1969,1970,1971,1972, DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP., MAYNARD,
> MASS.

Looking at the help file, it looks like this is more about global
symbols in object files (i.e. something analogous to nm)

http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/red405a2/11/unsupported/glob.hlp.html

The list of options matches the ones in swtab/sw1tab in the code, so
this is the same tool.

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Steve Johnson]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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Doug would probably be a better source, but, as you know, grep stands
for global regular expression print.  This is a literal translation
into words of a common idiom in vi (and ed before that):  g/xxx/p
which prints all the lines that match xxx.  The g means that it finds
all lines, rather than just searching for one.

Since glob tends to match more than one thing, but not in the usual
way, I suspect that it is a shortening of "global regular expression
print"  (with no print, and not, strictly speaking, the usual regular
expression syntax either)... 

As to why regular expressions are called "regular" expressions, that
happened long before Unix...

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From:
 "Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com>

To:
"Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Cc:
"TUHS main list" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:
Fri, 7 Jul 2017 13:37:21 -0400
Subject:
Re: [TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just
short for "global" (expression).

Steve / Doug any memories?

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
[1]>
 wrote:
    > From: Ron Minnich

     > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.

Something about global expressions.

 I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man
page:

   http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
[2]

 but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have
seen it,
 alas...

         Noel

 

Links:
------
[1] mailto:jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
[2] http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7

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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Arthur Krewat]

 From GLOB.MAC, TOPS-10 circa 1988 (not sure what version that is):

TITLE	GLOB -- GLOBAL CROSS-REFERENCE DIRECTORY LISTING

http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=glob.mac

Earliest version in that archive, 7-19-1975 but there are copyright 
dates going back to 1968

;COPYRIGHT 1968,1969,1970,1971,1972, DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP., MAYNARD, MASS.




On 7/7/2017 3:51 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
> That's the way I remember it, too--short for 'global expression'.
> TOPS-10 also had a glob command.  That possibly predates the UNIX
> glob.
>
> -Paul W.
>
>
> On 7/7/17, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>> This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just short
>> for "global" (expression).
>>
>> Steve / Doug any memories?
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>      > From: Ron Minnich
>>>
>>>      > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>>>
>>> Something about global expressions.
>>>
>>> I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:
>>>
>>>    http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
>>>
>>> but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen
>>> it,
>>> alas...
>>>
>>>          Noel
>>>

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Paul Winalski]

That's the way I remember it, too--short for 'global expression'.
TOPS-10 also had a glob command.  That possibly predates the UNIX
glob.

-Paul W.


On 7/7/17, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just short
> for "global" (expression).
>
> Steve / Doug any memories?
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>     > From: Ron Minnich
>>
>>     > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>>
>> Something about global expressions.
>>
>> I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:
>>
>>   http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
>>
>> but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen
>> it,
>> alas...
>>
>>         Noel
>>
>

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Clem Cole]

Kids these days ....  :-)

Although, I bet if you had called it a regular expression - they might have
understood.   My SW professional daughter learned about regular expressions
in the CS theory course a couple of years ago.   It was an "ah ha moment"
for her.   I had tried to teach her 'globing' years early (unsuccessfully
at the time).  But she remembered enough of the lesson it turns out.

Clem

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 1:54 PM, ron minnich <rminnich at gmail.com> wrote:

> by the way ... I just put a patch into a repo and my documentation said
> 'the name is in glob format' and got dinged by some reviewers: "what is
> glob"?
>
> I blame our education system :-)
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 10:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just
>> short for "global" (expression).
>>
>> Steve / Doug any memories?
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>     > From: Ron Minnich
>>>
>>>     > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>>>
>>> Something about global expressions.
>>>
>>> I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:
>>>
>>>   http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
>>>
>>> but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen
>>> it,
>>> alas...
>>>
>>>         Noel
>>>
>>
>>
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[ron minnich]

by the way ... I just put a patch into a repo and my documentation said
'the name is in glob format' and got dinged by some reviewers: "what is
glob"?

I blame our education system :-)

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 10:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just
> short for "global" (expression).
>
> Steve / Doug any memories?
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>     > From: Ron Minnich
>>
>>     > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>>
>> Something about global expressions.
>>
>> I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:
>>
>>   http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
>>
>> but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen it,
>> alas...
>>
>>         Noel
>>
>
>
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Clem Cole]

This is matches my memory/was the way I learned it - ie glob was just short
for "global" (expression).

Steve / Doug any memories?

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Ron Minnich
>
>     > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>
> Something about global expressions.
>
> I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:
>
>   http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7
>
> but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen it,
> alas...
>
>         Noel
>
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Ron Minnich

    > Why was it called glob? I always wondered.

Something about global expressions. 

I recall reading about this somewhere; I tried looking in the man page:

  http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man7/glob.7

but it didn't go into any detail. I don't know where I could have seen it,
alas...

	Noel

[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[Edouard KLEIN]

For what it's worth, there's a french word sharing the same root whose
definition match the meaning of glob:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/englober

I have no actual historical info, though.

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 at 18:25 ron minnich <rminnich at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
>
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[TUHS] origin of the name 'glob'

[ron minnich]

Why was it called glob? I always wondered.
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