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From: krewat@kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Subject: [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:16:22 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <165792c1-50b3-c6d3-4719-9f744a3da4aa@kilonet.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <201709130355.v8D3t3Li032157@darkstar.fourwinds.com>



On 9/12/2017 11:55 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
>
> I look at the systemd problem slightly differently.  In short, I was
> coming into work one night at BTL when Ken was heading out the door for
> his sabbatical at UCB with a stack of mag tapes under his arm.  I see
> that as a pivotal moment in computer history.  Students could learn from
> an actual real computer system; they had source code access.  And, they
> had the ability to modify and contribute to that code.  A lot of students
> from that era went out to do great things.  Years later, the lower cost
> of PCs resulted in students using them for their work.  Not only was MS-DOS
> not as advanced a system as UNIX, but source code access was gone.  Students
> had to learn from contrived projects, and didn't have the ability to play
> with the guts of the operating system that they were using.
Completely agree. To keep beating the dead horse, in high school we had 
access to a PDP-10, a KA10 running TOPS-10 5.06 - later they switched to 
4 KS10s running TOPS-10 6.03

I gained some notoriety as a hacker, and was tasked by the consulting 
firm that ran the things to build a "better" MIC (a batch scripting tool 
that allowed you to run things offline and go back later to look at the 
results). I had exploited the original DEC version to give me access to 
[1,2] ;)

Anyway, during that period, I was allowed to visit the installation, and 
if it was a weekend when students weren't on, to mount the "black" RP06 
pack that had all the TOPS-10 sources on it, and look at or print out 
anything I wanted (look or print, same thing, really, the access was via 
LA120). I learned a lot. Went on to work for the place for a few years.

Somewhere during that time, I was exposed to the IBM-PC and PCDOS. 
Except for my own projects in assembler, the IBM DOS and Technical 
Reference Manuals were all I had access to. HOWEVER - IBM in their 
infinite wisdom actually provided the sources to the BIOS in the manual. 
Still have that manual. That was awesome. I didn't have the DOS sources, 
but it wasn't hard to disassemble them with DEBUG and take a peak 
anyway. Back then, it was all written in assembler anyway, so it was 
only missing the symbols. Nothing was "out of reach".

Now, with C or C++, or worse, higher-level languages being the default 
choices, that optimize everything to death, it's hard to disassemble 
anything and really "see" what it's trying to accomplish, and how. Not 
impossible, I've done some reverse engineering of various OS's, but 
nothing spectacular.

For today's kids, well, it's a much different story. My son has a CS 
degree, but has almost no experience really peaking under the hood of 
any OS - some small ventures into kernels, but nothing huge like UNIX. 
Which brings me to another thing. Linux sources are freely available, 
and yet I don't see anyone really looking at them as an educational 
thing. I might be wrong, my experience in higher education is NONE.




  reply	other threads:[~2017-09-13 15:16 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 208+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-09-08 20:54 [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Dave Horsfall
2017-09-08 21:04 ` Noel Chiappa
2017-09-08 21:09   ` Michael Kjörling
2017-09-09  1:16     ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-09  1:30       ` [TUHS] File-as-record (was: Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie!) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2017-09-09  1:43         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-09  1:50         ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-09 13:59           ` [TUHS] File-as-record Arthur Krewat
2017-09-11 17:26         ` [TUHS] File-as-record (was: Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie!) Paul Winalski
2017-09-09  4:34       ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Steve Johnson
2017-09-09 13:04         ` William Cheswick
2017-09-09 17:26           ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 17:49           ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-09 19:40             ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 20:33           ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-09 21:56             ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-10  1:27               ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-11 16:20             ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-09 15:55         ` Clem Cole
2017-09-08 22:28   ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 11:04     ` Michael Kjörling
2017-09-09 11:19       ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-08 21:05 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-08 21:14 ` William Pechter
2017-09-08 22:13   ` Angus Robinson
2017-09-08 23:11     ` William Pechter
2017-09-09  5:13       ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-09 15:41         ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-09  4:20   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-11 16:30   ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-11 16:49     ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-11 17:37       ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-11 23:09       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12  7:38         ` arnold
2017-09-12 14:12           ` Ronald Natalie
2017-09-12 14:51             ` Toby Thain
2017-09-12 15:33             ` arnold
2017-09-12 15:35           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 16:57             ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 17:04             ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-12 17:07               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 22:11               ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 22:58                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 23:22                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 23:44                     ` Chris Torek
2017-09-12 23:41                 ` Adam Sampson
2017-09-13  0:14                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13 16:38                     ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Christian Groessler
2017-09-13 19:10                       ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-13 19:13                         ` Henry Bent
2017-09-19  0:44                       ` Random832
2017-09-19 10:30                         ` Nigel Williams
2017-09-19 14:05                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19 15:16                             ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 15:39                               ` [TUHS] old X versions Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 18:23                                 ` Nemo
2017-09-19 18:32                                   ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 18:32                                   ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 18:34                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19 18:43                                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 19:19                                       ` Stephen Kitt
2017-09-19 15:40                               ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Clem Cole
2017-09-19 17:01                               ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-19 17:15                                 ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 18:56                                   ` Derek Fawcus
2017-09-19 19:22                                     ` [TUHS] old X versions Arthur Krewat
2017-09-19 20:15                                     ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 18:30                                 ` Nemo
2017-09-19 23:40                               ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-19 23:46                                 ` [TUHS] old X versions Grant Taylor
2017-09-20  0:06                                   ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-13  0:29                 ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Bakul Shah
2017-09-13  0:52                   ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  0:54                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-13  0:56                       ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  0:57                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-13  2:06                         ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-13  3:34                           ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  3:55                             ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13 15:16                               ` Arthur Krewat [this message]
2017-09-13 15:42                                 ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) [ really systemd, student access to real code ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  1:42                     ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Arthur Krewat
2017-09-13  2:27                       ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13 16:14                     ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-13  0:56                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  1:34                     ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-13  2:43                     ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13  3:01                       ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  3:25                         ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13  3:27                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13 15:09                 ` Tony Finch
2017-09-13 15:19                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 23:33               ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Dave Horsfall
2017-09-12 20:15             ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-13  2:23               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14  0:53                 ` Nemo
2017-09-14  1:18                   ` Henry Bent
2017-09-14  3:15                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14  9:35                   ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 11:11                     ` arnold
2017-09-14 12:13                       ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 12:50                         ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-14 13:27                           ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 14:30                             ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-14 13:21                       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-14 19:44                         ` arnold
2017-09-14 20:22                           ` [TUHS] Tools and building: libtool, autoconf, etc. [ trying to have a relevant subject line ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14 20:32                             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 21:00                               ` Chris Torek
2017-09-14 21:03                                 ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 22:26                                   ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-16  3:34                                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  4:16                                   ` Warner Losh
2017-09-16  5:08                                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-16  3:33                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14 20:41                             ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-14 21:00                               ` Noel Hunt
2017-09-15 17:42                           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-14 20:31                         ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-15  3:16                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-15  3:33                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-15  8:32                       ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-15 12:42                     ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-15 18:20                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-15 18:37                       ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-13  7:30               ` arnold
2017-09-13 13:35                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-13 23:55                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-14  0:18                     ` Henry Bent
2017-09-14  2:10                       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14 19:37                       ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-14 19:54                         ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 20:50                           ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-14 21:00                             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 20:11                         ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 20:26                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19  0:52                         ` Random832
2017-09-19  2:50                           ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19  2:56                             ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19  3:37                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19  6:52                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2017-09-19  7:22                             ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-19 13:22                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 13:53                             ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-19 13:56                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 17:56                                 ` Random832
2017-09-19 18:31                                   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-19 18:34                                     ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 19:31                                   ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-20  3:13                                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-23 22:24                                     ` Ralph Corderoy
2017-09-19 14:32                             ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 14:42                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 15:12                                 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 18:03                                 ` Random832
2017-09-10  9:44 ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! arnold
2017-09-13 23:22   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-14 16:11     ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-14 16:15       ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 19:30         ` Theodore Ts'o
2017-09-14 19:52           ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 22:03             ` Christian Groessler
2017-09-14 22:39               ` Erik Berls
2017-09-14 22:52                 ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 23:04                   ` Warner Losh
2017-09-14 23:14                     ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-15 19:01                     ` Chris Torek
2017-09-15 19:50                       ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2017-09-15 19:56                         ` ron minnich
2017-09-15 20:34                         ` Chris Torek
2017-09-14 23:06                   ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-15  0:47                     ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 19:39         ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-14 20:09           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really Pottering vs UNIX ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14 21:35           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Theodore Ts'o
2017-09-15  1:40             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-15 14:04               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  3:40             ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  7:45               ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-16 12:59               ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-16 18:19                 ` Andy Kosela
2017-09-17 18:37                 ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-18 15:11                   ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-16 19:20               ` arnold
2017-09-17  1:43                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-17  1:55                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-17  2:14                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17  2:18                       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-17 14:27                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17  5:13                     ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-17  5:19                   ` arnold
2017-09-17 18:49                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-17 18:57                       ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-17 19:08                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17 19:33                           ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-17 19:22                         ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-17 18:43                   ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-18  0:12                     ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-18  0:51                       ` Clem Cole
2017-09-17 18:25               ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-13 15:17 [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Richard Tobin
2017-09-13 16:01 ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14  1:08   ` Nemo
2017-09-14  3:14 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-13 18:54 Nelson H. F. Beebe
2017-09-13 21:27 ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 12:30 Richard Tobin
2017-09-14 15:12 ` Warner Losh

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