From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E172B648 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 23:56:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF6B42A3F; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:56:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp20.pobox.com (pb-smtp20.pobox.com [173.228.157.52]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F89B42A36 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:56:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp20.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6EA2E44D; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=sasl; bh=wBe8AH hfo4eHuzyNW+0t5DNkcJzz9jHyxdYNDlyie50=; b=G79cLbmjToXz8K/yrG1Gfr UduQllYwMuDYp4vsy3A18G2G0iJPa4Qu6nk3TgBqKwwuphoLxKEaBHVqdWj5GQuZ bQSziaU/Je+BXENnqEAuBAM6RvtfOmE/XjJy3uMbficJW7mM8YicegxFQ08rYJ1Y 1MliuEyggXrTqQ0mJNQMg= Received: from pb-smtp20.sea.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567402E44C; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 058AA2E44B; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 17:56:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Arnold Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:56:20 +1000 Message-Id: <1841E020-8BDD-4997-A319-2FFEE75F84A5@pobox.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Grant Taylor X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20H343) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 4C7EEF34-2C2B-11EF-A33C-C38742FD603B-29049682!pb-smtp20.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: 3R6C7BQQRHNZURKM5F345A554RJXBFZ4 X-Message-ID-Hash: 3R6C7BQQRHNZURKM5F345A554RJXBFZ4 X-MailFrom: davida@pobox.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 15 Jun 2024, at 00:18, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIt's my understanding that systemd as a service lifecycle manager= is starting to take on some aspects of what cluster service managers used t= o do. I think it goes beyond this, and that systemd is just a convenient focus poi= nt for folks to push back against a wider set of changes. My usual example here is PolKit and polkitd. In this latest systemd release,= for example, it seems the new systemd-run0 command (replacing sudo or su), s= tarts a privileged process by checking permissions with polkitd over DBus, a= nd then uses systemd to actually fork and setup the =E2=80=9Cchild=E2=80=9D.= =20 This is a fairly distinctive departure from how Unix works: over the last de= cade, Linux has increasingly moved away from being Unix, and I think this is= why people find systemd so confronting. And there=E2=80=99s more to come, e= g. varlink.=20 I=E2=80=99m sure systemd, polkitd and their ilk address real needs. But the s= olution isn=E2=80=99t (in my view) Unix-like, and those for whom Linux is a c= onvenient Unix are disappointed (to put it mildly). The world is no longer a PDP-11 or a Vax or a SPARCstation. USB in particul= ar introduced a lot more dynamism to the Unix device model, and started us d= own this path of devfs, DBus, systemd, etc. Users reasonably want things to= work, and Red Hat wants to satisfy those users, and they=E2=80=99ve chosen t= his way to do it. Unfortunately, there=E2=80=99s been no real competition: t= his goes well beyond system startup, and well beyond service management, and= citing s6 or launchd or whatever misses the war by focusing on the battle.=20= d=