* SCO Licenses-where are they?
@ 1998-04-02 2:15 Ed G.
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From: Ed G. @ 1998-04-02 2:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
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Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
a thing.
Ed
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020414.OAA11901 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: SCO Licenses-where are they?
To: edgee at cyberpass.net
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804020315.WAA25507 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 1, 98 10:15:20 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
> I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
> a thing.
> Ed
This is the word from Dion, as at 1st April:
Well, we have 12 licenses accumulated here and I haven't got any
"system" set up to deal with these. I will probably just send
you a list of the peoples' names and addresses by postal mail.
Hope that's not too primitive.
I asked if he could send me the list via PGP email, but he countered
that they were all on paper, and he didn't have the time to send me the
list. However, he did say:
I will just drop them into a DHL or similar express shipment
thing. Hopefully in a day or two.
Now, I'm not sure if this means:
+ he will ship the licenses in a day or two,
+ he will ship me the list in a day or two,
+ it will only take a day or two for the list to reach me.
However, the worst-case scenario is that the licenses will be posted
in a day or two, and they should reach you quickly after that.
I checked my bank account, and SCO removed $100 on the 24th March.
I take this to indicate that I am now licensed. I don't know if this
is of much help, though.
I am waiting in anticipation, as we all are.
BTW First person to announce their license in the mailing list wins.
Wins what, I haven't a clue ;-)
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020536.PAA12273 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Early DEC support for UNIX?
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST)
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I was just browsing for web pages related to PDP-11s and UNIX, and I found:
http://idefix-45.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/museum/pdp/unix-E.html
which has a most interesting paragraph at the bottom:
Officially Digital Equipment did not support Unix. With the
maintenance technicians we made the agreement that the hardware was
OK, when their test programs did not produce error messages.
At the end of 1983 we found out that within Digital there was a
very small group which distributed Unix V7 with support and drivers
for all PDP 11 models and devices. Sources were distributed freely to
all source licensees of Bell labs. From then on we have used that
distribution.
Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
Is this an early Ultrix?
I've mailed the maintainer of the web page in question for more information.
Warren
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804020704.RAA25088 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
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> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
> Is this an early Ultrix?
I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
CPU Disk Tape
11/23 RL02 TU10
11/34 RK06 TE10
11/40 RK07 TU16
11/60 RM02 TE16
11/44 RM03 TS11
11/45 RP03
11/70 RP04
RP05
RP06
I have a 1600bpi tape, but haven't tried to read it lately.
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:01 -0500
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199804021454.AA19193 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
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<> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
<> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
<> Is this an early Ultrix?
<
<
< I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
<done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
<had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
So happens I have a tk50 tape labeled ULRIX-11 X3.1 27-jul-87.
Never looked at it as its apparently a tarball and all my systems with
tk50 to date are rt-11/rsts or VMS. I keep meaning to look at it with
the VAX ULTRIX4.2 VS2000.
Allison
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022241.IAA12757 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix for PDP-11
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST)
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Briefly, Jean tells me the stuff I saw on his web page (early DEC support)
is called UNIX V7M RELEASE 2.1. There's a copy of _a_ V7M in the archive, but
I've asked Jean to look at his tape so we can compare contents.
John Holden, as you saw, also has a tape with lots of pre-built kernels.
I've asked John if we can get a copy of this tape too.
A few people mentioned Ultrix for the PDP-11. This is probably a dumb
question, but I assume DEC still owns these systems. Would it be possible
(and/or worth it) to ask DEC to make it freely available to licensees?
I guess we could ask Bob Supnik about it.
Thanks again,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022359.JAA12908 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix: reply from Bob Supnik
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:47 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've just received this reply from Bob Supnik on PDP-11 Ultrix:
> If you can clear the other license issues (SCO's) Digital would have no
> problem giving a free license to its value add, whatever that was.
>
> That is, if the user can obtain a valid license from SCO, either binary
> or source, Digital will agree to license its portion at no cost under
> existing terms.
I asked him if DEC would permit us to distribute Ultrix to LICENSEES ONLY,
if some license agreement was also distributed. Awaiting a reply....
Warren
P.S Ken, Allison, can you send in some tape images??? Thanks 8-)
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 28, 98 11:50:54 am
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> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> there is a bug.
More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
the FP registers?
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030016.KAA12956 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Apr 2, 98 04:00:40 pm"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator [breaking factor(6)]
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
Don't know about vi FP, I could go have a look at the source. No, vi
doesn't appear to use any floating point.
I asked Bob about the factor(6) bug in my Ultrix mail, he didn't mention
it, but he might at some stage. I'll keep people informed.
As for vi, what was the abnormal behaviour?
Warren
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030050.QAA07798 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
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> Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
To the best of my knowledge 'vi' does NOT use any FP at all (other than
the usual 32 bit arithmetic that all programs do if they do any 'long'
arithmetic).
My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
to run would be very problematic.
Steven
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030100.LAA13088 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:34 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804030050.QAA07798 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Apr 2, 98 04:50:26 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
[re bugs in Bob Sunik's PDP emulator]
> My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
> a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
> 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
> downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
> the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
> a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
> eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
> restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
> systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
> problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
> to run would be very problematic.
>
> Steven
The 2bsd distribution in the archive comes with an early non-overlayed vi
which compiles on V7. However, I haven't got it to work correctly yet. I
suspect that the /etc/termcap entry I was using is not recognised by this
early version of termlib.
This is all irrelevant to the emulator bug, BTW.
Steven, have you mentioned your hypothesis to Bob?
Warren
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee at cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0400
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net
CC: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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> Mag tape has
> several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
complicated computer systems?
> the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> timers.
Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
it were a disk.
> Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> capability was available.
How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
etc.?
I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
this possible do you think?
> When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
drives?
Ed
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
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<Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
<hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
<it were a disk.
Dectape was an attempt to achive moderate amount of storage at low cost
with good reliability. It's stop, turnaround time was poor but the cost
was very low. It was preceeded by linktape which was very much similar.
<How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
varies with the size of the reel and the density it was recorded at.
<does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
<the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
<etc.?
To a point.
<I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
<For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
<this possible do you think?
Highly likely if you can find someone with a drive.
<Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
<drives?
Thats a typical one. Sometimes 4 drives were used plus maybe a disk
system. Two for source material, one for intermediate results, one or
more for programs and the last for final results. Some machines were
very limited in the local memory they had so programs often were broken
into small modules and loaded (chained) as needed on the fly. Imagine
processing 500k of data in a 16k memory where a portion was also used
for program code.
Allison
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:11 +0900
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>, wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
>> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
>> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
>> there is a bug.
>
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
unlikely. vi works as well as vi ever works.
Greg
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog at lemis.com, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca, wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Greg -
> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
wasn't failing ;).
Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
"hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
or kernel recompile troubles)?
Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
some day as I did with the 11/73).
Steven
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:26:21 +0900
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca,
wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com>
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
>> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
>
> AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
It's the one I've been using all along. I never used an older version.
>> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
>> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
>> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
>
> It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
> similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
> wasn't failing ;).
Reasonable assumption.
> Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
> "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
> arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
Sure, that makes sense. I did too, but I couldn't see anything obvious.
> I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
> arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
> or kernel recompile troubles)?
Well, not quite. I finally got back to the real work I should have
been doing, and I haven't had time to look at it again since. But
they went into hiding when I tried to show them to Hartmut :-) I think
we still have a problem somewhere. BTW, Hartmut had already upgraded
to PL 40? before I tried to start, so I'm still not completely
convinced that it's not something I did wrong in upgrading.
> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
anybody have some benchmarks?
Greg
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From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
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In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
"Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 3, 17:26)
References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com>
<19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> > some day as I did with the 11/73).
>
> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
> anybody have some benchmarks?
I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
post the source.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
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"Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 3, 15:41)
References: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
<9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca>
<19980403154111.63328 at papillon.lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Apr 3, 15:41, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
> On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> >> there is a bug.
I'd be very surprised if factor used FP. My 7th Edition system's offline ATM,
so I can't check the source.
> > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> > the FP registers?
Dunno, but I'd be surprised.
> applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
> unlikely.
Well, it is one of the areas that causes trouble on different flavours of
PDP-11. Both DEC and Unix O/S's had all sorts of games being played in the
trap recovery code, according to which processor the O/S thought it was running
under. But AFAIK, that code only gets called if an instruction is aborted,
which I wouldn't expect would happen exactly the same way every time factor was
run (but again, I'm speculating without having looked at the code).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:01:48 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
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In-Reply-To: "Ed G." <edgee at cyberpass.net>
"Re: What's magtape good for anyway?" (Apr 2, 22:15)
References: <199804030315.WAA06617 at renoir.op.net>
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
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On Apr 2, 22:15, Ed G. wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
Yes, in the sense that you could perform random-access operations on it. I
used a PDP-8 that had twin DECtape instead of disks. It supported 4(?)
teletypes in a multi-user environment. But DECtape was not 1/2" tape, nor did
it use reels like the ones that later became standard.
> How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
(80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
There are different standard lengths too: 600' 1200' 2400'.
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Shouldn't be hard, unless it's suffered from print-through after 18 years.
It's probably 800bpi (NRZI) or 1600bpi (PE). Whether you can understand the
contents depends on the format of the data, of course.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031350.AA00796 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030315.WAA06617 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Apr 2, 98 10:15:08 pm
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> > Mag tape has
> > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
>
> In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
> drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
> about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
> complicated computer systems?
You have to realize that disk storage on mainframe systems in the
1960's was usually quite small. Almost all "large-scale" processing
was from tape drive(s) to tape drive(s). If you find a really good
reference on sorting and collating (Knuth, for example) a lot of
effort is made on doing things with as little core and disk space
as possible. Most of these methods are still used today on really
large data sets (for example, FFT's on multi-gigabyte data sets
which are never entirely in memory.)
> > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> > timers.
>
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
DECtape was very much different from other tape media of the time.
You didn't treat it as a disk in just some ways, you treated it as
a disk in all ways.
At the time of DECtape, the most inexpensive removable disk media was
the RK05 DECpack, which cost about $150-$200 per platter. DECtape was
created as a more affordable "disk-like" removable media so that
each user could carry his files around with him.
> > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> > capability was available.
>
> How much data can magtape hold?
A 1600 bpi 2400 foot 9-track holds about 40 Megabytes if you use long
blocks. Other more recent magtapes (i.e. DLT's) hold 40-100 Gigabytes per
reel/cartridge. Some specialized optical tape media hold Terabytes
per reel.
> If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Absolutely. There are ANSI standards for all of the above. Despite
what others claim, interchangability was always rather straightforward,
and the worst problems are the "concepts" not supported by some operating
systems (i.e. Unix lacks file support for anything other than a file that's
just a stream-of-bytes).
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Absolutely. Part of my current profession is reading 9- (and 7-) tracks
that are up to 35 years old.
> > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
These uses aren't just historical - many of us still deal with datasets
that are Terabytes in size and which cannot be disk (or core) resident.
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031355.AA32661 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9804031301.ZM14090 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 3, 98 12:01:48 pm
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> > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> > etc.?
>
> Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
(and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
of GCR.
In the 7-track world, recording was almost always NRZI. One manufacturer
did make a 7-track PE system, but it was never a standard.
Tim.
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031400.AA23631 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 2, 98 11:50:23 pm
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> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
works. And speed also depends on whether the MMU
is enabled or not, too.
The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
a third the speed of a real 11/73 (slow enough that a lot of 60 Hz
line-time-clock interrupts go uncounted under RT-11, for example!)
Tim.
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:38:52 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
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In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>
"Re: What's magtape good for anyway?" (Apr 3, 5:55)
References: <9804031355.AA32661 at alph02.triumf.ca>
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To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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On Apr 3, 5:55, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE,
etc).
>
> But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
> (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
> of GCR.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply you could have any mixture. It's always irritated
me that I can't read 800bpi tapes on my 1600bpi drive simply because it doesn't
have the (optional) NRZI board.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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Tim -
> From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>
> On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
He's in the "dairy business"? :-) :-)
> with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
language version) program.
Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I/O operations are faster but I suspect a some of that is
due to Ultra-Wide Barracuda drives vs. HP 3724 and an Emulex UC08.
> than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
the dhrystone program I see:
Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
Please increase number of runs
EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
seconds.
> The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
I recall when the DEC rep here brought in one of the first 150mhz
Alpha systems. Thought it was awesome that a machine could do a
3 phase build of GCC in about 1 hour. Ummm, today a PPro can do it
in about 15 or 20 minutes ;)
Other benchmarks of possible interest:
A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
11/44 9min 20sec
11/73 9min 33sec
11/93 6min 43sec
emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
4 sec)
the 44 and 73 are suprisingly close because the 44 was hobbled with
RA81s on a UDA50 while the 73 had a HP3724S on Emulex UC08. Alas,
the RA81 died so I no longer have a 44 to test with (until I get a RA9x
or something myself since the support department refused to do it).
Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Steven
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Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
In-Reply-To: <199803172059.HAA01365 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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> > > P.S. As I suspected and feared,
> >
> > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
> >
> > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
>
> So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
though...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804041916.AA21693 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980404153822.15388A-100000 at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 4, 98 03:40:02 pm
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> > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
>
> Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
> compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
> though...)
Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.)
But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way.
(Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.)
As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled
using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which
they than succesfully ran? While the compiler seems to work fine, I've
run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to
do something useful.
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804042043.AA19446 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 3, 98 12:28:54 pm
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> > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
>
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
> 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I suspect that the emulator will be quite slow on any math-heavy
benchmark - and your observations confirm this. Doesn't Bob's
emulator do the FP operations by converting everything to IEEE
and back for each and every operand?
> > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
>
> The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
> the dhrystone program I see:
>
> Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
> Please increase number of runs
>
> EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
> seconds.
On my cow-oreker's Pentium Pro, the line-time clock under Bob's emulator
appears to work fine, but it "misses" a lot of ticks when running on
my 7-year-old Alpha. I've never looked at the logic to figure out exactly
what is going on, but I suspect that I couldn't emulate the interrupt/
priority structure any better than Bob's already done!
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec
For most "real" PDP-11 emulation uses this is probably a more realistic
benchark than the Dhrystone. I know lots of currently-being-used-and-
maintained PDP-11 applications, and none of them are heavy on FP - all
the FP-specific stuff got migrated to a faster machine the instant
the faster machine became available. (You'd be amazed at the awful
machines that I've seen people use *just* because it did their integral
faster. Farms of I860's and I960's were the rage a couple of years ago,
and boy was that an icky development platform.)
> (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
The line-time-clock on Bob's emulator doesn't necessarily have anything
to do with reality. On my cow-orker's 200 MHz pentium Pro, it ticks
about twice as fast as real time, but on my Alpha it'll often not tick
at all if there's something else keeping the (emulated) CPU busy. I
think other emulators (like John Wilson's) put more emphasis on real-time
applications and probably emulate the line-time-clock more faithfully.
> Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
> the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Again, I think the C recompile is probably a better benchmark - unless
someone's specifically interested primarily in FP emulation, which I think
is likely to be the exception.
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804042330.JAA28084 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: licenses mail today
To: dionj at sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980403095446.48700 at sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 3, 98 09:54:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Dion Johnson:
> I think I can get the licenses mailed today to the licensees.
Ta!
Warren
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> <grog at lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>; from Pete Turnbull on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:17:19PM +0000
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On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>
>>> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
>>> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
>>> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
>>> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
>>> some day as I did with the 11/73).
>>
>> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
>> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
>> anybody have some benchmarks?
>
> I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> post the source.
I'd be interested.
Greg
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com>
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On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:28:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
>
I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
/usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
/usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
/usr/src/lib/cpp 55.6 real 41.9 user 13.3 sys
date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Greg
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From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
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In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
"Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 6, 9:15)
References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com>
<19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> <grog at lemis.com>
<9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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On Apr 6, 9:15, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> > post the source.
>
> I'd be interested.
I don't want to clutter everyone's mailbox with a 32K file, so I've put it on
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/dhrystone.c
and anyone who wants can grab it from there. If there's any problem accessing
that page from that server, please do two things:
1) tell me! so I can complain, and
2) try http://www.personal.u-net.com/~dunnington/public/dhrystone.c
or http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/ and follow the "no intel" link :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804060425.VAA11498 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog at lemis.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca,
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Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
the optimizer or preprocessor
> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
thing.
I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
Steven
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 21:25:26 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
>> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
>
>> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
>> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
>
> I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
> the optimizer or preprocessor
Hmm. That's a big difference in favour of Begemot.
>> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
>
> Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
> thing.
It's not 100% accurate. On my machine, it loses a few minutes a day.
But all the numbers add up, and it didn't lose noticably more time
during the build.
> I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
> moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
> and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
> RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
> P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
I'll put some stuff together. I've exchanged some mail on the
subjecte today with J�rg Micheel, one of the authors. Hartmut Brandt,
the other, is in Germany and thus probably sleeping. The version I
have him includes images for 2.11BSD, which I can't give to anybody,
though I suppose we can make an exception in your case :-) I'll see
what I can put together.
Greg
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik@digital.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:57 -0400
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There is indeed a bug in the floating point emulator: MODf was setting
the condition codes off the integer result, not the fractional result.
To fix the bug, look for this code fragment in source module pdp11_fp.c
case 3: /* MODf */
ReadFP (&fsrc, GeteaFP (dstspec, lenf), dstspec, lenf);
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
newV = modfp11 (&fac, &fsrc, &modfrac);
F_STORE (qdouble, fac, FR[ac | 1]);
F_STORE (qdouble, modfrac, FR[ac]);
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, fac.h, newV);
break;
Change the indicated code line to be:
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
and recompile.
Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
showed the bug.
(I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the run
time libraries.)
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Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804062203.PAA28357 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com
Subject: modf
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Bob -
> Change the indicated code line to be:
>
> ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
>
> and recompile.
>
> Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
> showed the bug.
The 'primes' program also uses 'modf' so it might encounter the same
problem as FACTOR.
> (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
> MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the runtime
'modf' is used in the runtime routines which compute 'long' (and
unsigned long) remainders. So if 'vi' is doing something like
"long % X" or "unsigned long % X" it's possible (likely) that it's
getting a wrong answer and becoming extremely confused.
I'll check this later tonight.
Steven
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:58:38 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
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I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
license: AU-1!
Now, to do something with it.
Dave
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Message-Id: <199804062356.JAA00432 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> license: AU-1!
>
> Now, to do something with it.
> Dave
You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
Warren
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Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
into it.
But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by David C. Jenner:
> > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> > license: AU-1!
> >
> > Now, to do something with it.
> > Dave
>
> You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
> Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
>
> Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: djenner at halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <35296DC1.36FFDB54 at halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 05:05:21 pm"
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
> Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
> into it.
>
> But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
> are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
> Dave
I don't think the licensing section in San Francisco knows me from Adam.
I asked Dion if AU stood for Ancient Unix, Australia or both :-)
I'm so glad at least two people have got licenses (Charles Retter too).
It sets a legal precedent, in case SCO ever change their mind.
Warren
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From: John Holden <johnh@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
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Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
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From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik at digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
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Subject: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
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Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Ed G.
sim> att tm0 emutar.tap
TM: creating new file
sim> cont
ta: not found
# tar cvf /dev/rmt0 mysqrt.c
a mysqrt.c 1 blocks
# cd tmp
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
...etc.
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From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik at digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
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Subject: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator
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I wrote a little square root program in "C" to test the floating
point in Bob Supnik's emulator (see attached code). The program
works fine under Linux, but bombs on Bob's emulator, confirming
people's theory that the emulator has a floating point bug.
I used Newton's method for the algorithm and only uses add,
subtract, multiply and divide. The emulator produced identical
incorrect results for two different versions of the program one using
floats, the other doubles.
Here's what the program does on Bob Supnik's emulator:
# cc mysqrt.c
# a.out
Initial guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
Here's what the program does on Linux:
[root at oskar uv7]# gcc mysqrt.c
[root at oskar uv7]# a.out
Initial guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 1.5000000000000000
guess: 1.4166666666666667
guess: 1.4142156862745099
guess: 1.4142135623746899
My square root is: 1.4142135623746899
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---- File information -----------
File: MYSQRT.C
Date: 6 Apr 1998, 23:50
Size: 413 bytes.
Type: Program-source
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From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
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Subject: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
'17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
heavily on floating point.
Are my results in error?
Here's what I found in the bin directory:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
diff 277
pr 275
sed 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
od 151
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
mv 134
newgrp 133
factor 132
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
touch 96
tty 91
split 90
uniq 89
rev 86
chown 84
kill 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
u3b2 0
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070046.KAA00659 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804070035.KAA11206 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden at "Apr 7, 98 10:35:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by John Holden:
> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070051.KAA00727 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
To: edgee at cyberpass.net
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804070042.UAA07206 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 08:42:54 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Is your tape just a raw format tape, or are you using the 32-bit
preamble/postambles to indicate the record/block sizes?
Read the tail-end of simh_doc.txt for details.
Warren
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, John Holden <johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
References: <199804070035.KAA11206 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> <199804070046.KAA00659 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 10:46:42 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by John Holden:
>> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
>> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
>> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
>
> I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
> already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
> in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
>
> For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
> It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
> of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
>
> Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
> from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
> create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
> volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Anybody who gets a tape from me will get the latest version. The same
will probably apply to CDs if I ever get round to installing a burner.
Greg
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net>
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On Mon, 6 April 1998 at 20:42:54 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
>
> I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
> '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
> executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
> heavily on floating point.
>
> Are my results in error?
How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Greg
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070551.PAA01173 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
Paul P, Paul V, Steven
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
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1998-04-02 2:15 SCO Licenses-where are they? Ed G.
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