From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: edgee@cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:15:20 -0400 Subject: SCO Licenses-where are they? Message-ID: <199804020315.WAA25507@renoir.op.net> Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet? I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard a thing. Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10655 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:13:24 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10650 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:13:20 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11901; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804020414.OAA11901 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: SCO Licenses-where are they? To: edgee at cyberpass.net Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199804020315.WAA25507 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 1, 98 10:15:20 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ed G.: > Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet? > I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard > a thing. > Ed This is the word from Dion, as at 1st April: Well, we have 12 licenses accumulated here and I haven't got any "system" set up to deal with these. I will probably just send you a list of the peoples' names and addresses by postal mail. Hope that's not too primitive. I asked if he could send me the list via PGP email, but he countered that they were all on paper, and he didn't have the time to send me the list. However, he did say: I will just drop them into a DHL or similar express shipment thing. Hopefully in a day or two. Now, I'm not sure if this means: + he will ship the licenses in a day or two, + he will ship me the list in a day or two, + it will only take a day or two for the list to reach me. However, the worst-case scenario is that the licenses will be posted in a day or two, and they should reach you quickly after that. I checked my bank account, and SCO removed $100 on the 24th March. I take this to indicate that I am now licensed. I don't know if this is of much help, though. I am waiting in anticipation, as we all are. BTW First person to announce their license in the mailing list wins. Wins what, I haven't a clue ;-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10899 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:35:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10894 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:35:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12273 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804020536.PAA12273 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Early DEC support for UNIX? To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I was just browsing for web pages related to PDP-11s and UNIX, and I found: http://idefix-45.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/museum/pdp/unix-E.html which has a most interesting paragraph at the bottom: Officially Digital Equipment did not support Unix. With the maintenance technicians we made the agreement that the hardware was OK, when their test programs did not produce error messages. At the end of 1983 we found out that within Digital there was a very small group which distributed Unix V7 with support and drivers for all PDP 11 models and devices. Sources were distributed freely to all source licensees of Bell labs. From then on we have used that distribution. Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive. Is this an early Ultrix? I've mailed the maintainer of the web page in question for more information. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11109 for pups-liszt; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:05:05 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11104 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:05:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh at localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25088 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000 From: John Holden Message-Id: <199804020704.RAA25088 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being > referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive. > Is this an early Ultrix? I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It had prebuilt kernels as follows :- CPU Disk Tape 11/23 RL02 TU10 11/34 RK06 TE10 11/40 RK07 TU16 11/60 RM02 TE16 11/44 RM03 TS11 11/45 RP03 11/70 RP04 RP05 RP06 I have a 1600bpi tape, but haven't tried to read it lately. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12448 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:54:20 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12443 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:54:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA16815; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19193; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:01 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199804021454.AA19193 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk <> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being <> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive. <> Is this an early Ultrix? < < < I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:40:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12757 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804022241.IAA12757 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Ultrix for PDP-11 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Briefly, Jean tells me the stuff I saw on his web page (early DEC support) is called UNIX V7M RELEASE 2.1. There's a copy of _a_ V7M in the archive, but I've asked Jean to look at his tape so we can compare contents. John Holden, as you saw, also has a tape with lots of pre-built kernels. I've asked John if we can get a copy of this tape too. A few people mentioned Ultrix for the PDP-11. This is probably a dumb question, but I assume DEC still owns these systems. Would it be possible (and/or worth it) to ask DEC to make it freely available to licensees? I guess we could ask Bob Supnik about it. Thanks again, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13909 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:58:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13904 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:58:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12908 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:48 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804022359.JAA12908 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Ultrix: reply from Bob Supnik To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:47 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just received this reply from Bob Supnik on PDP-11 Ultrix: > If you can clear the other license issues (SCO's) Digital would have no > problem giving a free license to its value add, whatever that was. > > That is, if the user can obtain a valid license from SCO, either binary > or source, Digital will agree to license its portion at no cost under > existing terms. I asked him if DEC would permit us to distribute Ultrix to LICENSEES ONLY, if some license agreement was also distributed. Awaiting a reply.... Warren P.S Ken, Allison, can you send in some tape images??? Thanks 8-) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13931 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13926 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:54 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA00122; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! To: wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 28, 98 11:50:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth > watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during > the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that > there is a bug. More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use the FP registers? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13973 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:15:18 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13968 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:15:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12956 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804030016.KAA12956 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Apr 2, 98 04:00:40 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator [breaking factor(6)] > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use > the FP registers? Don't know about vi FP, I could go have a look at the source. No, vi doesn't appear to use any floating point. I asked Bob about the factor(6) bug in my Ultrix mail, he didn't mention it, but he might at some stage. I'll keep people informed. As for vi, what was the abnormal behaviour? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14061 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:52:23 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14056 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:52:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07798 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804030050.QAA07798 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use > the FP registers? To the best of my knowledge 'vi' does NOT use any FP at all (other than the usual 32 bit arithmetic that all programs do if they do any 'long' arithmetic). My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi' to run would be very problematic. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14110 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:44 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14105 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13088; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:35 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804030100.LAA13088 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator? To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:34 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804030050.QAA07798 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Apr 2, 98 04:50:26 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: [re bugs in Bob Sunik's PDP emulator] > My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is > a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via > 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand > downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's > the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's > a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems > eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction > restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other > systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered > problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi' > to run would be very problematic. > > Steven The 2bsd distribution in the archive comes with an early non-overlayed vi which compiles on V7. However, I haven't got it to work correctly yet. I suspect that the /etc/termcap entry I was using is not recognised by this early version of termlib. This is all irrelevant to the emulator bug, BTW. Steven, have you mentioned your hypothesis to Bob? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14677 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:15:33 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14672 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:15:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-06.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.102]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id WAA06617; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804030315.WAA06617 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) In-reply-to: <199803251433.AA22737 at world.std.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Mag tape has > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big, complicated computer systems? > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop, > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple > timers. Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if it were a disk. > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead. > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time) > capability was available. How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media, does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits, etc.? I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980. For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is this possible do you think? > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use. Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape drives? Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16168 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:44:37 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16163 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:44:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA28403; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14598; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:44:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:44:23 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199804030544.AA14598 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:08:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.34]) by mailext02.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:01:12 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2.0.93 1997-Apr-12 #2 built 1997-Dec-21) Received: from papillon.lemis.com(really [202.48.19.19]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 3 Apr 98 01:09:00 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 18-dec-97) Received: (grog at localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA00975; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:15 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <19980403154111.63328 at papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:11 +0900 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Shoppa , wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au Cc: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Thu, Apr 02, 1998 at 04:00:40PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that >> there is a bug. > > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use > the FP registers? FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely. vi works as well as vi ever works. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17551 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:50:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17545 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:50:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10664; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> To: grog at lemis.com, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca, wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greg - > FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the > Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to. > unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz > considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction > restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely. It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory wasn't failing ;). Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :) I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler or kernel recompile troubles)? Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into some day as I did with the 11/73). Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17660 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:37:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mailext02.compaq.com (mailext02.compaq.com [207.18.199.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17655 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:36:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.compaq.com(really [207.18.199.34]) by mailext02.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:29:23 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2.0.93 1997-Apr-12 #2 built 1997-Dec-21) Received: from papillon.lemis.com(really [202.48.19.19]) by mail.compaq.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 3 Apr 98 02:37:14 -0600 (CST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.10 built 18-dec-97) Received: (grog at localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id RAA01094; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:26:22 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:26:21 +0900 From: Greg Lehey To: "Steven M. Schultz" , shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca, wkt at CS.ADFA.OZ.au Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Thu, Apr 02, 1998 at 11:50:23PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Greg - > >> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the >> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I > > AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to. It's the one I've been using all along. I never used an older version. >> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz >> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction >> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely. > > It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause > similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory > wasn't failing ;). Reasonable assumption. > Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy > "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final > arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :) Sure, that makes sense. I did too, but I couldn't see anything obvious. > I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they > arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler > or kernel recompile troubles)? Well, not quite. I finally got back to the real work I should have been doing, and I haven't had time to look at it again since. But they went into hiding when I tried to show them to Hartmut :-) I think we still have a problem somewhere. BTW, Hartmut had already upgraded to PL 40? before I tried to start, so I'm still not completely convinced that it's not something I did wrong in upgrading. > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into > some day as I did with the 11/73). Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does anybody have some benchmarks? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18306 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:57 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18287 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.168] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yL5R1-00000F-00; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:19:04 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id MAA14104; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:17:19 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:17:19 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 3, 17:26) References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote: > On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued > > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro > > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an > > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into > > some day as I did with the 11/73). > > Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be > slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does > anybody have some benchmarks? I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can post the source. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18297 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18289 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.168] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yL5R8-00000F-00; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:19:11 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id MAA14098; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:11:00 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:11:00 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804031311.ZM14096 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 3, 15:41) References: <199803280050.LAA05410 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122 at alph02.triumf.ca> <19980403154111.63328 at papillon.lemis.com> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 3, 15:41, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! > On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth > >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during > >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that > >> there is a bug. I'd be very surprised if factor used FP. My 7th Edition system's offline ATM, so I can't check the source. > > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob > > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some > > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but > > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs > > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use > > the FP registers? Dunno, but I'd be surprised. > applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet > unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz > considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction > restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is > unlikely. Well, it is one of the areas that causes trouble on different flavours of PDP-11. Both DEC and Unix O/S's had all sorts of games being played in the trap recovery code, according to which processor the O/S thought it was running under. But AFAIK, that code only gets called if an instruction is aborted, which I wouldn't expect would happen exactly the same way every time factor was run (but again, I'm speculating without having looked at the code). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18305 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18292 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.168] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yL5R6-00000F-00; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:19:09 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id MAA14092; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:01:48 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:01:48 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804031301.ZM14090 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: "Ed G." "Re: What's magtape good for anyway?" (Apr 2, 22:15) References: <199804030315.WAA06617 at renoir.op.net> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 2, 22:15, Ed G. wrote: > Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? > Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My > hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if > it were a disk. Yes, in the sense that you could perform random-access operations on it. I used a PDP-8 that had twin DECtape instead of disks. It supported 4(?) teletypes in a multi-user environment. But DECtape was not 1/2" tape, nor did it use reels like the ones that later became standard. > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media, > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits, > etc.? Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc). There are different standard lengths too: 600' 1200' 2400'. > I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980. > For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is > this possible do you think? Shouldn't be hard, unless it's suffered from print-through after 18 years. It's probably 800bpi (NRZI) or 1600bpi (PE). Whether you can understand the contents depends on the format of the data, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18540 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:50:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18535 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:50:19 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA00796; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804031350.AA00796 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199804030315.WAA06617 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Apr 2, 98 10:15:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Mag tape has > > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through > > In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape > drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it > about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big, > complicated computer systems? You have to realize that disk storage on mainframe systems in the 1960's was usually quite small. Almost all "large-scale" processing was from tape drive(s) to tape drive(s). If you find a really good reference on sorting and collating (Knuth, for example) a lot of effort is made on doing things with as little core and disk space as possible. Most of these methods are still used today on really large data sets (for example, FFT's on multi-gigabyte data sets which are never entirely in memory.) > > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without > > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This > > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop, > > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping > > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the > > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple > > timers. > > Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My > hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if > it were a disk. DECtape was very much different from other tape media of the time. You didn't treat it as a disk in just some ways, you treated it as a disk in all ways. At the time of DECtape, the most inexpensive removable disk media was the RK05 DECpack, which cost about $150-$200 per platter. DECtape was created as a more affordable "disk-like" removable media so that each user could carry his files around with him. > > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to > > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally > > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead. > > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream > > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time) > > capability was available. > > How much data can magtape hold? A 1600 bpi 2400 foot 9-track holds about 40 Megabytes if you use long blocks. Other more recent magtapes (i.e. DLT's) hold 40-100 Gigabytes per reel/cartridge. Some specialized optical tape media hold Terabytes per reel. > If magtape was a portable media, > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits, > etc.? Absolutely. There are ANSI standards for all of the above. Despite what others claim, interchangability was always rather straightforward, and the worst problems are the "concepts" not supported by some operating systems (i.e. Unix lacks file support for anything other than a file that's just a stream-of-bytes). > I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980. > For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is > this possible do you think? Absolutely. Part of my current profession is reading 9- (and 7-) tracks that are up to 35 years old. > > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were > > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results > > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount > > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use. These uses aren't just historical - many of us still deal with datasets that are Terabytes in size and which cannot be disk (or core) resident. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18575 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:55:45 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18565 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:55:32 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA32661; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804031355.AA32661 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? To: pete at dunnington.U-NET.com Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <9804031301.ZM14090 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 3, 98 12:01:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media, > > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of > > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits, > > etc.? > > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc). But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type of GCR. In the 7-track world, recording was almost always NRZI. One manufacturer did make a 7-track PE system, but it was never a standard. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18630 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:00:54 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18625 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:00:48 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA23631; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804031400.AA23631 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 2, 98 11:50:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into > some day as I did with the 11/73). On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11 works. And speed also depends on whether the MMU is enabled or not, too. The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about a third the speed of a real 11/73 (slow enough that a lot of 60 Hz line-time-clock interrupts go uncounted under RT-11, for example!) Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19270 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 04:25:23 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA19264 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 04:25:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.252] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yLASB-0005wX-00; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:40:36 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) id RAA14501; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:38:52 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:38:52 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804031838.ZM14499 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: What's magtape good for anyway?" (Apr 3, 5:55) References: <9804031355.AA32661 at alph02.triumf.ca> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: Tim Shoppa Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway? Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 3, 5:55, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities > > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc). > > But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI > (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type > of GCR. Yes, I didn't mean to imply you could have any mixture. It's always irritated me that I can't read 800bpi tapes on my 1600bpi drive simply because it doesn't have the (optional) NRZI board. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19782 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:31 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19776 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25193; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim - > From: Tim Shoppa > On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled He's in the "dairy business"? :-) :-) > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C language version) program. Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec. I/O operations are faster but I suspect a some of that is due to Ultra-Wide Barracuda drives vs. HP 3724 and an Emulex UC08. > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11 The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running the dhrystone program I see: Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results Please increase number of runs EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36 seconds. > The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about I recall when the DEC rep here brought in one of the first 150mhz Alpha systems. Thought it was awesome that a machine could do a 3 phase build of GCC in about 1 hour. Ummm, today a PPro can do it in about 15 or 20 minutes ;) Other benchmarks of possible interest: A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: 11/44 9min 20sec 11/73 9min 33sec 11/93 6min 43sec emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min 4 sec) the 44 and 73 are suprisingly close because the 44 was hobbled with RA81s on a UDA50 while the 73 had a HP3724S on Emulex UC08. Alas, the RA81 died so I no longer have a 44 to test with (until I get a RA9x or something myself since the support department refused to do it). Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22011 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:52 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (Radha.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.99]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22006 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10577; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:05 +0200 Received: from localhost by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA15396; Sat, 4 Apr 98 15:40:03 +0200 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?] In-Reply-To: <199803172059.HAA01365 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > > P.S. As I suspected and feared, > > > > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11 > > > > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu, > > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler. > > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11 though...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA22903 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22898 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:07 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA21693; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:03 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804041916.AA21693 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?] To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 4, 98 03:40:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler > > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? > > Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C > compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11 > though...) Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.) But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way. (Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.) As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which they than succesfully ran? While the compiler seems to work fine, I've run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to do something useful. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23137 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:45 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA23132 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19446; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804042043.AA19446 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 3, 98 12:28:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real > > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based > > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower > > Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using > gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C > language version) program. > > Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real > 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec. I suspect that the emulator will be quite slow on any math-heavy benchmark - and your observations confirm this. Doesn't Bob's emulator do the FP operations by converting everything to IEEE and back for each and every operand? > > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device > > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11 > > The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running > the dhrystone program I see: > > Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results > Please increase number of runs > > EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36 > seconds. On my cow-oreker's Pentium Pro, the line-time clock under Bob's emulator appears to work fine, but it "misses" a lot of ticks when running on my 7-year-old Alpha. I've never looked at the logic to figure out exactly what is going on, but I suspect that I couldn't emulate the interrupt/ priority structure any better than Bob's already done! > Other benchmarks of possible interest: > > A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: > > 11/44 9min 20sec > 11/73 9min 33sec > 11/93 6min 43sec > emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec For most "real" PDP-11 emulation uses this is probably a more realistic benchark than the Dhrystone. I know lots of currently-being-used-and- maintained PDP-11 applications, and none of them are heavy on FP - all the FP-specific stuff got migrated to a faster machine the instant the faster machine became available. (You'd be amazed at the awful machines that I've seen people use *just* because it did their integral faster. Farms of I860's and I960's were the rage a couple of years ago, and boy was that an icky development platform.) > (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min > 4 sec) The line-time-clock on Bob's emulator doesn't necessarily have anything to do with reality. On my cow-orker's 200 MHz pentium Pro, it ticks about twice as fast as real time, but on my Alpha it'll often not tick at all if there's something else keeping the (emulated) CPU busy. I think other emulators (like John Wilson's) put more emphasis on real-time applications and probably emulate the line-time-clock more faithfully. > Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though > the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower. Again, I think the C recompile is probably a better benchmark - unless someone's specifically interested primarily in FP emulation, which I think is likely to be the exception. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23510 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23505 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:22 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28084; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804042330.JAA28084 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: licenses mail today To: dionj at sco.COM (Dion Johnson) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980403095446.48700 at sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 3, 98 09:54:46 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dion Johnson: > I think I can get the licenses mailed today to the licensees. Ta! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27137 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:53 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27132 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10674; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27639; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406091532.27504 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>; from Pete Turnbull on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:17:19PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >>> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued >>> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro >>> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an >>> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into >>> some day as I did with the 11/73). >> >> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be >> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does >> anybody have some benchmarks? > > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can > post the source. I'd be interested. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27211 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27206 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10698; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27787; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406094656.23449 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Steven M. Schultz" , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193 at moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:28:54PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:28:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using > gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C > language version) program. > > Other benchmarks of possible interest: > > A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: > > 11/44 9min 20sec > 11/73 9min 33sec > 11/93 6min 43sec > emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min > 4 sec) > I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys /usr/src/lib/cpp 55.6 real 41.9 user 13.3 sys date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27499 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:59:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27494 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:59:21 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.95] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yM1BO-0007V6-00; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:58:46 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id BAA28170; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:44:16 GMT Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:44:16 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804060244.ZM28168 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Apr 6, 9:15) References: <199804030750.XAA10664 at moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485 at papillon.lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> <19980406091532.27504 at freebie.lemis.com> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 6, 9:15, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have > > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with > > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can > > post the source. > > I'd be interested. I don't want to clutter everyone's mailbox with a 32K file, so I've put it on http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/dhrystone.c and anyone who wants can grab it from there. If there's any problem accessing that page from that server, please do two things: 1) tell me! so I can complain, and 2) try http://www.personal.u-net.com/~dunnington/public/dhrystone.c or http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/ and follow the "no intel" link :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27910 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:41 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27905 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11498; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804060425.VAA11498 at moe.2bsd.com> To: grog at lemis.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca, sms at moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey > I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results > on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: > /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys > /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not the optimizer or preprocessor > date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected thing. I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27929 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:09 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27924 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11029; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA03317; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406140800.57401 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Steven M. Schultz" Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804060425.VAA11498 at moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804060425.VAA11498 at moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 09:25:26PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 21:25:26 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: Greg Lehey >> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results >> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: > >> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys >> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys > > I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not > the optimizer or preprocessor Hmm. That's a big difference in favour of Begemot. >> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). > > Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected > thing. It's not 100% accurate. On my machine, it loses a few minutes a day. But all the numbers add up, and it didn't lose noticably more time during the build. > I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the > moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old > and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice > RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if > P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks. I'll put some stuff together. I've exchanged some mail on the subjecte today with J�rg Micheel, one of the authors. Hartmut Brandt, the other, is in Germany and thus probably sleeping. The version I have him includes images for 2.11BSD, which I can't give to anybody, though I suppose we can make an exception in your case :-) I'll see what I can put together. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA00762 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00757 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id RAA17311 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:26:02 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE69206683E78 at excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator? Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There is indeed a bug in the floating point emulator: MODf was setting the condition codes off the integer result, not the fractional result. To fix the bug, look for this code fragment in source module pdp11_fp.c case 3: /* MODf */ ReadFP (&fsrc, GeteaFP (dstspec, lenf), dstspec, lenf); F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac); newV = modfp11 (&fac, &fsrc, &modfrac); F_STORE (qdouble, fac, FR[ac | 1]); F_STORE (qdouble, modfrac, FR[ac]); ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, fac.h, newV); break; Change the indicated code line to be: ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV); and recompile. Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which showed the bug. (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the run time libraries.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00880 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00875 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:36 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28357; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804062203.PAA28357 at moe.2bsd.com> To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com Subject: modf Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Bob - > Change the indicated code line to be: > > ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV); > > and recompile. > > Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which > showed the bug. The 'primes' program also uses 'modf' so it might encounter the same problem as FACTOR. > (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in > MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the runtime 'modf' is used in the runtime routines which compute 'long' (and unsigned long) remainders. So if 'vi' is doing something like "long % X" or "unsigned long % X" it's possible (likely) that it's getting a wrong answer and becoming extremely confused. I'll check this later tonight. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA01023 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01018 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06639 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:59:09 -0700 Message-ID: <35295E1E.DD7BB731 at halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:58:38 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society Subject: License AU-1 arrives! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first license: AU-1! Now, to do something with it. Dave Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01144 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01139 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00432; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:32 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804062356.JAA00432 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: djenner at halcyon.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <35295E1E.DD7BB731 at halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 03:58:38 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first > license: AU-1! > > Now, to do something with it. > Dave You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from Dion, you'll get access to the archive. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:18 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01186 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07325; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:05:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35296DC1.36FFDB54 at halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:05:21 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! References: <199804062356.JAA00432 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you, Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put into it. But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about. Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by David C. Jenner: > > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first > > license: AU-1! > > > > Now, to do something with it. > > Dave > > You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from > Dion, you'll get access to the archive. > > Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01206 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01201 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00531; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:44 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804070009.KAA00531 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: djenner at halcyon.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:43 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <35296DC1.36FFDB54 at halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 05:05:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you, > Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put > into it. > > But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We > are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about. > Dave I don't think the licensing section in San Francisco knows me from Adam. I asked Dion if AU stood for Ancient Unix, Australia or both :-) I'm so glad at least two people have got licenses (Charles Retter too). It sets a legal precedent, in case SCO ever change their mind. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:36:05 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01335 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh at localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11206 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000 From: John Holden Message-Id: <199804070035.KAA11206 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all know that computer programmers start counting from zero! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01383 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01368 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07206; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07206 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Is this another bug? What do you all think? Ed G. sim> att tm0 emutar.tap TM: creating new file sim> cont ta: not found # tar cvf /dev/rmt0 mysqrt.c a mysqrt.c 1 blocks # cd tmp # tar vxf /dev/rmt0 x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks ...etc. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01382 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01367 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07198; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07198 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-396 Subject: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body I wrote a little square root program in "C" to test the floating point in Bob Supnik's emulator (see attached code). The program works fine under Linux, but bombs on Bob's emulator, confirming people's theory that the emulator has a floating point bug. I used Newton's method for the algorithm and only uses add, subtract, multiply and divide. The emulator produced identical incorrect results for two different versions of the program one using floats, the other doubles. Here's what the program does on Bob Supnik's emulator: # cc mysqrt.c # a.out Initial guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 Here's what the program does on Linux: [root at oskar uv7]# gcc mysqrt.c [root at oskar uv7]# a.out Initial guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 1.5000000000000000 guess: 1.4166666666666667 guess: 1.4142156862745099 guess: 1.4142135623746899 My square root is: 1.4142135623746899 --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Content-description: Attachment information. The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: MYSQRT.C Date: 6 Apr 1998, 23:50 Size: 413 bytes. Type: Program-source --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: Application/Octet-stream; name="MYSQRT.C"; type=Program-source Content-disposition: attachment; filename="MYSQRT.C" Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 I2RlZmluZSBQUkUgZG91YmxlCgpQUkUgYWJzdihuKQogIFBSRSBuOwp7CiAgaWYgKG4gPCAw KSB7CiAgICByZXR1cm4gLW47CiAgfQogIGVsc2UgewogICAgcmV0dXJuIG47CiAgfQp9CgpQ UkUgbXlzcXJ0KG4pClBSRSBuOwp7ClBSRSBnLCBlcnI7CgpnID0gbi8yOwplcnIgPSBuLzFl NjsKCnByaW50ZigiUHJlY2lzaW9uOiAgUFJFXG4iKTsKCnByaW50ZigiSW5pdGlhbCBndWVz czogJS4xNmZcblxuIiwgZyk7CiB3aGlsZSAoYWJzdihnKmctbikgPj0gZXJyKSB7CiAgIGcg PSAoZypnK24pLygyKmcpOwogICBwcmludGYoImd1ZXNzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgZyk7CiB9CnJl dHVybihnKTsKfQoKbWFpbigpCnsKUFJFIG4gPSAyLjA7CgogcHJpbnRmKCJcbk15IHNxdWFy ZSByb290IGlzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgbXlzcXJ0KG4pKTsKfQo= --Message-Boundary-396-- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01389 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01369 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07210 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point? I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather heavily on floating point. Are my results in error? Here's what I found in the bin directory: awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 diff 277 pr 275 sed 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 od 151 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 mv 134 newgrp 133 factor 132 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 tail 103 sleep 101 stty 98 touch 96 tty 91 split 90 uniq 89 rev 86 chown 84 kill 83 yes 79 tr 58 sp 57 test 53 basename 34 tee 24 echo 4 sync 2 u3b2 0 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01416 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01411 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00659; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804070046.KAA00659 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804070035.KAA11206 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden at "Apr 7, 98 10:35:46 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by John Holden: > Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping > with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all > know that computer programmers start counting from zero! I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn in my mail box until Tuesday next week. For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives. It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze' of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then. Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the volunteers to burn and mail you a CD. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01435 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01430 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00727; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804070051.KAA00727 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? To: edgee at cyberpass.net Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199804070042.UAA07206 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 08:42:54 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ed G.: > Is this another bug? What do you all think? Is your tape just a raw format tape, or are you using the 32-bit preamble/postambles to indicate the record/block sizes? Read the tail-end of simh_doc.txt for details. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01897 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01892 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12310; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07098; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980407135115.06874 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, John Holden Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! References: <199804070035.KAA11206 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> <199804070046.KAA00659 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804070046.KAA00659 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 10:46:42AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 10:46:42 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by John Holden: >> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping >> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all >> know that computer programmers start counting from zero! > > I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail > already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn > in my mail box until Tuesday next week. > > For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives. > It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze' > of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then. > > Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge > from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to > create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the > volunteers to burn and mail you a CD. Anybody who gets a tape from me will get the latest version. The same will probably apply to CDs if I ever get round to installing a burner. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01912 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01907 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12314; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:14 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07106; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980407135313.43010 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 April 1998 at 20:42:54 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point? > > I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code > '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix > executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather > heavily on floating point. > > Are my results in error? How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:58 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02159 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01173 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804070551.PAA01173 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias, Paul P, Paul V, Steven Cheers, Warren P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)