* A Decision :-)
[not found] <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
@ 1998-08-05 1:57 ` Greg Lehey
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Greg Lehey @ 1998-08-05 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
> name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
> now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
> chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
> maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
> licences, too.
>
> Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
> Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
> Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia@iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808051511.RAA26558 at IAEhv.nl>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: TUHS web page: version #0
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pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions,
wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to
wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated
to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware
info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information
on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this
mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run
2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often.
(Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO,
but that won't take too long anymore.)
The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org
I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site,
there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and
let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed,
so I can make the site more complete.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection
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From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-Id: <199808052115.RAA12664 at shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
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One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting
to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that
I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors
of these boxes.
One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.
Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which
was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty
and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system.
Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there.
AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them.
I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since
I could mix and match features on the fly.
Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid
even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant
SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting
these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or
SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need
a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee."
Bill
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia@iaehv.nl>
Message-Id: <199808052346.BAA21053 at IAEhv.nl>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
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pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
pe>Edition VII.
8< snip >8
Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that
should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a
Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to
be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years.
I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth
telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very
incomplete set on the OS.
Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about
the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I
copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it
copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.)
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Kees Stravers <pb0aia at iaehv.nl>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
References: <199808052346.BAA21053 at IAEhv.nl>
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On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote:
> pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
> pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of
> pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
> pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major
> pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
> pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
> pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
> pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
> pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
> pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
> pe>Edition VII.
>
> 8< snip >8
>
> Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver",
by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's
possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:45 +0200
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp at world.std.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930 at world.std.com>
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On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
> < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
> < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
> < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
>
> They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s.
(Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)
Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster
pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there
are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the
VAXen.
> Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making
> all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This
> place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
> We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the
> code and preserved it from loss.
Amen.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: gq696@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: I'm still alive...
Reply-To: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
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Dear TUHS members,
Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about
it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine
(blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from
computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The
address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting
with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I
originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it
appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for
Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please
add my temporary address to the list?
From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998
morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been
made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX
UNIX work goes, a little later, OK?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
*TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808112343.JAA00744 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Johnny Billquist:
> (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
> into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)
Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore
I can't contact him to fix it.
Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS
is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know
that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any
other Unix-related heritage pages.
Cheers all,
Warren
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: gq696@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
Reply-To: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
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Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
> machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages.
Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME
record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4.
This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it
stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I
can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
*TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: PDP-1103
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Dear List,
I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax
11/785. The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot
blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I
had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write
RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to
one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus
2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95)
via rs232 or what ever.
Anyone got any ideas how I might do this?
Thanks,
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
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To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter at shell.monmouth.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664 at shell.monmouth.com>
References: <199808052115.RAA12664 at shell.monmouth.com>
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* Carolyn Pechter wrote:
> One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
> universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
> Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
> non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.
I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there
were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in
the basement, not working). No source though of course, and without
source they are probably less interesting. I remember RTU as being
deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was
extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines.
--tim
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808190306.NAA12804 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST)
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A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total
of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67.
Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado,
Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch,
Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams
are all now licensed.
Cheers all,
Warren
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Message-Id: <199809011442.KAA15214 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
bsdbob at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
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I am curious as to the rationale and reasoning behind:
1) fs naming conventions
2) fs space allocation conventions
3) fs to partition mapping conventions
4) partition conventions
historically in unix (particularly the BSD's).
Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to the contrib sections?
Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
originally?
Why the sizes of the various fs?
I am trying to understand historically the hows and whys things developed
as they did. The SMM's don't really cover it very well.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809011719.MAA15499 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric@fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011442.KAA15214 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <199809011442.KAA15214 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
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> From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
I don't think I really have all the background necessary to answer
these questions, but I'll give it a shot anyway:
> Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily
promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be
mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was
necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a
running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file
system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other
systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems,
including 4.4BSD.
> Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
> the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
> with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
> originally?
It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition,
where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows:
partition start length
0 0 23 -> a
1 23 21 -> b
2 0 0 -> c
3 0 0 -> d
4 44 386 -> e
5 430 385 -> f
6 44 367 -> g
7 44 771 -> h
(the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece)
A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on
partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7.
Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk.
Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used
for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire
rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of
partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one
for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could
be put to use somehow.
The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different
sizes than the Seventh Edition used:
partition start length
0 0 9614 -> a
1 18392 65535 -> b
2 48018 65535 -> c
3 149644 20900 -> d
4 0 40600 -> e
5 41800 40600 -> f
6 83600 40600 -> g
7 125400 40600 -> h
(these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains
the motivation for partitioning:
This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
broken up into more managable pieces.
I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though,
because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting
space or overlapping.
> Why the sizes of the various fs?
The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I
believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small,
fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used
files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk,
and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems
on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know.
eric
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809011816.OAA15796 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499 at fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
this sort of thing in one place?
So much to learn....
Bob Keys
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809011856.OAA15872 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499 at fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
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> > From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
> > Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var?
>
> I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily
> promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be
> mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was
> necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a
> running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file
> system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other
> systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems,
> including 4.4BSD.
OK. Now it is beginning to make sense.
IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
of particular reasons to even have a /var fs? For example, on my FBSD
boxes (yeah, I know new stuff and not Ancient Unixes, but I have to run
it at the office --- at home is another story), I find that I use var
mostly for temp stuff, spooling prints and mail, and little else.
The ftp user is off on another fs with regular users, where space is
not critical (since my ftp archives can vary widely, across time) and
I don't want to take up a lot of space with a mostly empty var.
That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put
var as a tree within the root fs? And, then, what did the earlier
systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas?
I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and
pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U,
has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line?
> > Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand
> > the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild,
> > with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it,
> > originally?
>
> It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition,
> where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows:
>
> partition start length
> 0 0 23 -> a
> 1 23 21 -> b
> 2 0 0 -> c
> 3 0 0 -> d
> 4 44 386 -> e
> 5 430 385 -> f
> 6 44 367 -> g
> 7 44 771 -> h
>
> (the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece)
Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
code design limits?
> A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on
> partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7.
> Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk.
Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something
that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by
unix?
> Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used
> for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire
> rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of
> partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one
> for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could
> be put to use somehow.
>
> The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different
> sizes than the Seventh Edition used:
>
> partition start length
> 0 0 9614 -> a
> 1 18392 65535 -> b
> 2 48018 65535 -> c
> 3 149644 20900 -> d
> 4 0 40600 -> e
> 5 41800 40600 -> f
> 6 83600 40600 -> g
> 7 125400 40600 -> h
>
> (these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains
> the motivation for partitioning:
>
> This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
> and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
> blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
> broken up into more managable pieces.
OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
It is interesting that here it seems that partitions 1 and 2 were
co-addressed, or overlapping, while 4/5/6/7 were sequentially laid
out across the disk, perhaps. It would seem that 4/5/6/7 were just
simple divisions of the disk into 4 pieces. Was something like this
done to accommodate whether the drive was used a a boot drive or
a secondary drive?
> I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though,
> because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting
> space or overlapping.
>
> > Why the sizes of the various fs?
>
> The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I
> believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small,
> fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used
> files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk,
> and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems
> on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know.
Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
> eric
Again... Thanks!
Bob Keys
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809011945.OAA16702 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric@fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <199809011856.OAA15872 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Organization: The University of Chicago
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> From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
[snip]
> IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
> or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
> of particular reasons to even have a /var fs?
There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of
root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate
partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the /var
partition won't also break root or /usr, but this works both ways,
because if you had allowed it to be part of a larger partition it might
not have filled up in the first place.
> That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put
> var as a tree within the root fs?
Lots of systems set it up as just a regular directory within the
root directory. Others (like SGIs) make it really be /usr/var
and put a symlink from /var to there.
> And, then, what did the earlier systems like 32V or V7 use as the
> mail or print spooling areas?
V7 mail keeps files in /usr/spool/mail; earlier systems did not have an
equivalent directory and delivered mail files directly to users' home
directories. UUCP in v7 spooled files to /usr/spool/uucp. The v6
manual (in the manpage for opr) refers to printer spool directories
/lib/dpr, /lib/lpr, and /lib/npr; the lpd manpage also lists /usr/lpd.
> I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and
> pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U,
> has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line?
The v1 manual (as TIFF-format scans and OCRed PostScript), as well as
much other historical material, is available from Dennis Ritchie's web
page,
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/
The v7 manual is also at the same site but in
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/
The v6 manual can be extracted from the binary v6 distribution that you
can run on a PDP-11 emulator, though troff changed a bit between v6 and
v7 so you have to work a bit to get it to format with a modern ditroff.
> Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
> or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
> code design limits?
I think they were specifically there for convenience. The smaller
disks that were also supported did not all have partitions.
> Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something
> that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by
> unix?
I imagine it would be used if you devoted an entire disk to a single
file system, or as a way of copying the entire contents of the disk
regardless of the partitioning to another device for backup.
> OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
> to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
The v6 C compiler does not have long integers and the PDP-11 is a 16-bit
machine, so that's why everything was limited to 65536 blocks. If you
want *real* weirdness, check out the v1 manual, in which the seek call
had not yet been made to deal with anything over 65536 *bytes*, so seeking
on disks worked very strangely.
> Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
> of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was
the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the
entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix
Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know
which to believe.
eric
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Barron <pat@transarc.com>
Reply-To: Pat Barron <pat at transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting
> or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts
> of particular reasons to even have a /var fs?
Sure, as long as you make the root filesystem large enough, you can just
have /var be part of the root filesystem (or do like small SunOS/Slowaris
systems do, and have /var be a symbolic link to /usr/var - reasonably
safe, since SunOS and Slowaris both tend to assume that /usr is always
mounted).
> [...] And, then, what did the earlier
> systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas?
Mail is dropped into /usr/spool/mail, or /usr/mail, depending on what
system you're talking about. Don't remember where printing went (I
actually don't remember if V7 even had a print-spooling system; I did a
lot of printing by doing "pr filename > /dev/lp"....
> Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related,
> or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or
> code design limits?
The partition sizes were compiled into the driver, not stored in a disk
label such as with more modern Unixes (and that was actually the case
until fairly recently - I don't think that disk labels made it into the
Berkeley code until at least the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release). If you wanted to
change a partition boundary, you had to edit some constants in the driver
and recompile your kernel (or do what I used to do a lot - use "adb -w"
to change the driver tables on-the-fly, and then try to remember to make
the same changes to the source code so you didn't get a surprise next time
you rebuilt the kernel.....).
> > This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks
> > and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536
> > blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be
> > broken up into more managable pieces.
>
> OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due
> to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?).
This was a filesystem limitation; the filesystem code could not handle
more than 64K blocks in a filesystem, probably because it was using 16 bit
unsigned integers internally.
--Pat.
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To: Eric Fischer <eric at fudge.uchicago.edu>
Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
References: <199809011856.OAA15872 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <199809011945.OAA16702 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih@Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 02 Sep 1998 22:14:56 +0200
In-Reply-To: Eric Fischer's message of "Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)"
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Eric Fischer <eric at fudge.uchicago.edu> writes:
> There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of
> root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate
> partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the
> /var partition won't also break root or /usr, [...]
Another good reason to keep /var (and, for that matter, /tmp) off the
root partition is to keep that file system mostly quiescent. You
really don't want more writing activity than is absolutely necessary
on the file system you have to have intact to even get to single user
to run 'fsck', 'restore' and friends.
On some systems, having the root file system mounted read-only during
normal operation would be a nice security improvement.
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:45:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Eric Fischer <eric at fudge.uchicago.edu>
cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
In-Reply-To: <199809011945.OAA16702 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Eric Fischer wrote:
> > Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era
> > of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture?
>
> If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was
> the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the
> entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix
> Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know
> which to believe.
Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when
it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512
bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody
know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199809032150.QAA09714 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
From: Eric Fischer <eric@fudge.uchicago.edu>
To: bqt at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????)
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References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Organization: The University of Chicago
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> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when
> it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512
> bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody
> know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...)
Oh! You're right -- I looked at the line in the manual that says
The disk contains 1024 256-word blocks, numbered 0 to 1023 ...
and misread 256-word as 256-byte because it was such a strange concept
that Unix would ever be doing word-oriented I/O. That makes a lot
more sense.
eric
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To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
cc: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:16:04 EDT."
<199809011816.OAA15796 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:25:15 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick@mckusick.com>
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499 at fudge.uchicago.edu>
from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm"
To: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys),
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
this sort of thing in one place?
So much to learn....
Bob Keys
The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions.
Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose
it below in case you do not have access to it.
Kirk McKusick
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
DISKPART(8) BSD System Manager's Manual DISKPART(8)
NAME
diskpart - calculate default disk partition sizes
SYNOPSIS
diskpart [-p] [-d] [-s size] disk-type
DESCRIPTION
Diskpart is used to calculate the disk partition sizes based on the de-
fault rules used at Berkeley.
Available options and operands:
-p Tables suitable for inclusion in a device driver are pro-
duced.
-d An entry suitable for inclusion in the disk description file
/etc/disktab is generated; for example, disktab(5).
-s size The size of the disk may be limited to size with the -s op-
tion.
On disks that use bad144(8) type of bad-sector forwarding, space is nor-
mally left in the last partition on the disk for a bad sector forwarding
table, although this space is not reflected in the tables produced. The
space reserved is one track for the replicated copies of the table and
sufficient tracks to hold a pool of 126 sectors to which bad sectors are
mapped. For more information, see bad144(8). The -s option is intended
for other controllers which reserve some space at the end of the disk for
bad-sector replacements or other control areas, even if not a multiple of
cylinders.
The disk partition sizes are based on the total amount of space on the
disk as given in the table below (all values are supplied in units of
sectors). The `c' partition is, by convention, used to access the entire
physical disk. The device driver tables include the space reserved for
the bad sector forwarding table in the `c' partition; those used in the
disktab and default formats exclude reserved tracks. In normal opera-
tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti-
tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying
whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions.
If the disk is smaller than 20 Megabytes, then diskpart aborts with the
message ``disk too small, calculate by hand''.
Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB
a 15884 15884 15884 15884
b 10032 33440 33440 66880
d 15884 15884 15884 15884
e unused 55936 55936 307200
h unused unused 291346 291346
If an unknown disk type is specified, diskpart will prompt for the re-
quired disk geometry information.
SEE ALSO
disktab(5), bad144(8)
BUGS
Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the
RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts.
When using the -d flag, alternate disk names are not included in the out-
put.
HISTORY
The diskpart command appeared in 4.2BSD.
4th Berkeley Distribution June 6, 1993 2
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809040119.LAA04168 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:19:01 +1000 (EST)
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> Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my
> woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover
> this sort of thing in one place?
>
> Bob Keys
As with much of early Unix, you have to Use the Source, Luke. Small disks
like the RK05s and RL02 were not typically partitioned, except to put a
swap space at one end. However, bigger disks like the RP04s were. In V6
and V7, this was done by the device driver, and the device minor number
represented the particular partition, e.g from v6 hp.c
struct {
char *nblocks;
int cyloff;
} hp_sizes[] {
9614, 0, /* cyl 0 thru 23 */
/* cyl 24 thru 43 available */
-1, 44, /* cyl 44 thru 200 */
-1, 201, /* cyl 201 thru 357 */
20900, 358, /* cyl 358 thru 407 */
/* cyl 408 thru 410 blank */
40600, 0,
40600, 100,
40600, 200,
40600, 300,
};
. . .
hpstrategy(abp)
struct buf *abp;
{
register struct buf *bp;
register char *p1, *p2;
bp = abp;
p1 = &hp_sizes[bp->b_dev.d_minor&07];
Here, each of the 8 minor device numbers selected a different set of
cylinders on the disk, and note also that some of the sets overlapped.
The V6 manual on hp(4) says:
Since the disk is so large, this allows it to be broken
up into more manageable pieces. The origin and size of the
pseudo-disks on each drive are as follows:
disk start length
0 0 9614
1 18392 65535
2 48018 65535
3 149644 20900
4 0 40600
5 41800 40600
6 83600 40600
7 125400 40600
It is unwise for all of these files to be present in one
installation, since there is overlap in addresses and
protection becomes a sticky matter.
Early versions of BSD followed this compile-time partition selection.
I'm note sure when disklabels appeared, perhaps in 4.2BSD. Kirk or
Steven might be able to tell us.
Warren
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(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199809071810.OAA29122 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <199809040025.RAA11780 at flamingo.McKusick.COM> from Kirk McKusick at "Sep 3, 98 05:25:15 pm"
To: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:10:42 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions.
> Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose
> it below in case you do not have access to it.
>
> Kirk McKusick
Thanks!
A couple of more questions, so I get the entire picture.....since you
were there.... as the old TV show went.....
> In normal opera-
> tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti-
> tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying
> whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions.
What are d,e, and f partititions typically used for or originally designed
for, as opposed to g? I see some of the historical carryovers in how they
were arrived at, but I sense there was probably some reasoning or design
advantages one way over another, back in time, or else there would not
have been the distinctions.
> Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB
> a 15884 15884 15884 15884
> b 10032 33440 33440 66880
> d 15884 15884 15884 15884
d is a small partition, so what would it have been designed to be used for?
It seems the same as root in size, so would it have been, for example, a
spare root copy?
> e unused 55936 55936 307200
e is variable in size, and the only use I have seen of it is for the /var fs,
so, what was e designed for, or typically used as?
> h unused unused 291346 291346
Likewise for h.
In my limited exposure, I have seen in 4.3BSD that g was typically used for
the /usr partition as the rest of the disk. On 4.4BSD, /var was hung on e
and g was the usr partition for the rest of the disk, on one setup, and on
another things were really confused and var was hung on h, with all different
kinds of other fs hung out here and there across the disks. The rationale
for it was, at best, confusing to the newbie.
Is it particularly important to worry about how it is laid out, or in the
Berkeley tradition, are there particular advantages or economies to laying
it out with d/e/f/ as opposed to just g? I see the fs loading table in
the 4.4 install guide, but was wondering if there was more to it than that.
> BUGS
> Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the
> RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts.
This is what I am seeing, it would appear.
Maybe the advantages of earlier layouts vs disks are becoming lost with the
modern megadisks, in many instances. Also, I tend to see things from the
point of view of a single user workstation as opposed to a big multiuser
server of some kind. Thus, my frame of refernce is a little skewed.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:10:42 EDT."
<199809071810.OAA29122 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:16:11 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick@mckusick.com>
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Most commonly, d was used for /tmp (before the days of
memory-based filesystems). The e partition was used for
/var, and f was used for /usr. The e partition was the
same size as the root filesystem so that it could be used
as a backup root filesystem.
Kirk McKusick
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809102354.JAA02038 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CSRG CDs now available
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping
the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group.
It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not
2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources
plus the SCCS files.
Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199809191112.VAA01633 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Help Save 4BSD Boot Tapes!
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:17 +1000 (EST)
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Many kudos to Kirk McKusick for making the entire BSD releases from the
Computer Systems Research Group available on CD. However, many people are
going to buy the CD set so they can install 4.3BSD on their personal Vax.
Unfortunately, the 4CD set from Kirk does not contain any tape images
(bootable or otherwise) which would allow any of the 4BSDs to be installed.
Therefore, I'm asking anybody who might have old 4BSD tapes lying in a
corner, or knows someone who might have old 4BSD tapes (or has heard a
rumor about old 4BSD tapes etc.) to e-mail me with the details.
If we can unearth any old 4BSD tapes, then I am sure there will be
volunteers around who will be very happy to read the tapes, and I will
make space for them alongside the other files and tape images in the
PUPS archive.
While I'm here, I might as well say that I'm still looking for any old
PDP-11 versions of UNIX, or any applications written for early versions
of UNIX, or anything machine-readable which is generally related to
early versions of UNIX. Debbie Scherrer has just donated the Software Tools,
and both Dennis Ritchie and Norman Wilson are slowly scanning in their
paper copies of man pages for UNIX Editions 1 to 5.
Many thanks in advance for your help in preserving the history of Unix.
Warren
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:14:22 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CSRG CDs now available
In-Reply-To: <199809102354.JAA02038 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping
> the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group.
> It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not
> 2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources
> plus the SCCS files.
>
> Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
FYI, these are a *really* nice set of CDs. I was completely amazed at how
professionally they'd been put together.
Any progress on the BSD binary images for VAX?
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199810072255.IAA22782 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Found 4BSD tapes at last
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:04 +1000 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
Subject: Found at Last
My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
wants to take a crack at it.
~Kirk
----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
Many thanks in advance for the help.
Cheers,
Warren
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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:46:54 -0700
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
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Where is Kirk located? If it is near California, I can do the work.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
>Subject: Found at Last
>
>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
>wants to take a crack at it.
>
> ~Kirk
>
>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
>
>Many thanks in advance for the help.
>
>Cheers,
> Warren
>
>
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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
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Warren,
Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup
on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact
me.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
>Subject: Found at Last
>
>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
>wants to take a crack at it.
>
> ~Kirk
>
>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
>
>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
>
>Many thanks in advance for the help.
>
>Cheers,
> Warren
>
>
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz@cpio.net>
X-Sender: jkatz at corinne.cpio.org
To: Rick Copeland <rickgc at calweb.com>
cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520 at pop.calweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.02.9810080921230.16361-100000 at corinne.cpio.org>
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We may have some equipment at my workplace we can use. We're in
San Jose, he's in Berkeley, 50-70 miles in the other direction. I
need to get clearence from the boss, first, though.
-Jon
Jonathan Katz, CEO CPIO Networks, Inc.
(408) 569-7092 [ ] jkatz at cpio.net
http://www.cpio.net [ ] "offering OpenBSD
technical support, on-site Unix and
network security services and training."
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Rick Copeland wrote:
:Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
:From: Rick Copeland <rickgc at calweb.com>
:To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
:Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
:
:Warren,
:
:Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup
:on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact
:me.
:
:Rick Copeland
:Information Systems Manager
:InterMag, Inc.
:(916) 568-6744 x36
:
:
:At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
:>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
:>
:>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey
:>Subject: Found at Last
:>
:>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes
:>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have
:>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi
:>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from
:>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape
:>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am
:>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that
:>wants to take a crack at it.
:>
:> ~Kirk
:>
:>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick -----
:>
:>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the
:>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send
:>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?!
:>
:>Many thanks in advance for the help.
:>
:>Cheers,
:> Warren
:>
:>
:
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To: Rick Copeland <rickgc at calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 PDT."
<3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520 at pop.calweb.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:34:48 -0700
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick@mckusick.com>
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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc at calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren,
Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so
shipping or pickup on the week end is not a problem. Please
contact Kirk and have him contact me.
Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36
Hi,
I am located at:
Kirk McKusick
1614 Oxford Street
Berkeley, CA 94709-1608
I could mail you the tape, but I would prefer to find a way to get it
to you that would minimize its being bounced around. Any ideas?
Kirk McKusick
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199810082242.IAA24785 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 4BSD tapes to be read
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:46 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
Rick Copeland has arranged to pick the 4BSD tapes up from Kirk
and read them this or next week. Thanks to all the people who volunteered,
and hopefully copies of the tapes will be in the archive soon.
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811120257.NAA04829 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Upgrade of PUPS List server
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:57:45 +1100 (EST)
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All, I have just upgraded the server where the PUPS mailing list resides, to
a newer operating system version. This email is just to test that the
MajorDomo software is still working.
Warren
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:55:23 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811120455.XAA09098 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
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Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently
uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the
images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a
collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for
every tarball. This stuff is in:
/usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries)
/usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries)
That's on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. The permissions are set up so that pupsarc
group members (UNIX source license holders) can read them, but no one else can.
With Warren's permission, I would like to keep this stuff there until I set up
my own FTP site, at which time I'll announce its location.
The Reno images are perfect, but for Tahoe usr.tar.gz and src.tar.gz are bad
(everything else is fine). Apparently Rick wasn't able to read past a tape
defect (we are handling this in private E-mail).
Have fun with this stuff!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811120451.PAA05125 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:51:32 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199811120455.XAA09098 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 11, 98 11:55:23 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
>I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently
> uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the
> images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a
> collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for
> every tarball. This stuff is in:
>
> /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries)
> /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries)
I'll move copies of Michael's 43tahoe.cci and 43reno.vax directories
into the main PUPS archive area, in the Distributions/4bsd area.
Warren
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:05:43 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811131205.HAA09705 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: 4.2BSD and 4.3BSD
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Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just uploaded the images from the 4.3BSD tapes I had read on
CWRU's MVS mainframe back in June. They are perfect (the 1600 BPI tapes
were read without any errors and the format is absolutely correct). Note,
though, that this is the June 1986 4.3BSD release, and I remember Kirk
saying that among the tapes Rick is reading there is one with 4.3BSD
revision 2, which is presumably 4.3BSD with some bugs fixed.
I have also put an honest effort into reconstructing the 4.2BSD tape
images from the files in Distributions/4bsd/Per_Andersson_4.2. The latter
have the boot/standalone system file (1st on the tape) broken, the tarball
with /usr/src also broken, and the tarball with /usr/lib/vfont simply
missing. I have manually repaired the boot/standalone system file (using my
brain and a hex editor), but unfortunately /usr/src is broken beyond repair
(so I didn't include it in my repackaging). I see no reason for the
Varian/Versatec fonts to change between BSD releases, so /usr/lib/vfont
from 4.3BSD will probably do fine. It would still be nice if Rick could
read Kirk's 4.2BSD tapes, though. For practical use 4.3BSD completely
supersedes it, but for historical purposes we should preserve 4.2BSD as
well.
This stuff is in:
/usr/home/msokolov/42.vax (4.2BSD)
/usr/home/msokolov/43.vax (4.3BSD)
on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. (Warren, if you want to put this in the main
PUPS archive, go ahead and do it for 43.vax, as it should be ready to be
frozen, but I would hold on with 42.vax. Hopefully Rick will have some luck
reading Kirk's tapes, and then I'll update the 42.vax directory by filling
the missing pieces.)
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:14:44 -0800
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Warren,
I am unable to login to minnie, I keep getting back "user rickgc access
denied!". Why?
Thanks,
Rick Copeland
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811200209.VAA15512 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: KA650 problem
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Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm trying to build my first release (4.3BSD-Quasijarus1), and I have
the following problem. I'm currently away from my main VAX farm, and so I
have rounded up a new VAX for this task from an independent source. It's a
KA650-based MicroVAX specially made for Xerox. The outer cabinet is made by
Xerox, but it has a BA23 mounted inside. There is no video, just a serial
terminal.
My first problem was that the beast refused to power up. I turn on the
power, but there is nothing on the console and the hex LED display on the
back says 9. I power-cycled it several times with zero effect, and then I
took the CPU board out to look at it. It looked perfectly normal, and I put
it back in. Then imagine my joy when I power up the VAX and this time it
works! After that I worked with it for a while, and in the process I turned
it on and off a couple of times and it didn't have any problem powering up.
My next step was installing Ultrix, which is the platform I have chosen
to use for putting together the initial Quasijarus SCCS tree and cross-
compiling the very first Quasijarus build. However, when I tried to boot
from the Ultrix tape, I got a "?4B CTRLERR" (after an _extremely_ long wait
with a lot of retries), which according to my docs means some hardware
error. I reasoned that it has to be either the TK50 drive or the TQK50
controller. I don't have any spare TK50s at this location, but I do have
one spare controller, and so I tried swapping it. I turned the machine off,
swapped the board, and turned it back on. And guess what, that ugly 9 came
back! I haven't been able to power up the VAX since then.
I started investigating. I don't have any docs for KA650, but I do have
some for KA655. According to these docs, the KA650 series CPUs have very
elaborate ROM diagnostics organized in the form of scripts, some of which
are executed at power-up. The manual lists all scripts, indicating the
order of the tests and the hex LED display codes. According to this manual,
the only tests which display a 9 are fairly late in the sequence and are
fairly benign (shouldn't stall the power-up even if failed). The problem
I'm seeing, OTOH, appears to be very early. For example, the console line
loopback test appears to be one of the very first, and yet my VAX always
stalls on the 9, even if I put the switch in the T-in-the-circle position.
I have also watched the hex LED display very carefully right as I flip the
power switch, and as far as I can tell it goes directly from F (waiting for
DCOK) to 9. Finally, disconnecting the bulkhead and the memory interconnect
produces absolutely no effect, suggesting that the culprit is the CPU board
and nothing else. Also pushing the RESTART button on the front panel
produces absolutely no effect, if the 9 was there it just stays there,
there is no F appearing for a short time or anything like that. What does
the RESTART button do, anyway?
Does anyone here have a clue as to what's going on? Does anyone have a
KA650 manual? Can anyone tell what the hell does the 9 stand for? Any ideas
on how this can be fixed (other than replacing the CPU board)? TIA.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:07:44 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
To: PUPS Mailing List <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax at netbsd.org>
Subject: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
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Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
docs.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:40 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brian D Chase <bdc at world.std.com>,
PUPS Mailing List <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax at netbsd.org>
Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
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On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote:
> Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
> under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
> docs.
What's Ebay?
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:31:51 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
Cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>,
NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax at netbsd.org>
Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay.
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On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote:
> > Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC"
> > under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11
> > docs.
>
> What's Ebay?
Sorry about that... I'd thought everybody knew by now. It's the world's
largest and most popular on-line auction service. http://www.ebay.com/
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:49:46 -0500
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Message-Id: <981121124946.2a2000ed at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: 4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)
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I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions
now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off
a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's, but I'm stuck
at (literally) before step one, and don't know where to go from here.
If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd
appreciate being redirected to them!
OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is:
YOU MUST ALREADY HAVE A WORKING VAX! These instructions are useless on
a cold machine. You must have a 4.3 machine and a working uVax (probably
Ultrix!) with a tk50 drive.
Apparently, this is because the distributions don't boot on a
Microvax, and the KA630 Microvax/MSCP/TMSCP patches must be installed
and many things rebuilt on a 4.3 machine before a distribution tape can
be built to put on a VAX.
Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently
in the archive, or not? If it is a real limitation, what non-
microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750?
11/730?
Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:28:28 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811211928.OAA15984 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)
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SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com writes:
> I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions
> now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off
> a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's [...]
The most important thing here is to choose the right version of BSD.
Plain 4.3 CANNOT boot on a MicroVAX II. Later versions, starting with
Tahoe, can. The patches provided in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions are nothing
more than pieces taken out of Tahoe. If you are going to use those, you
might want to use the whole Tahoe system just as well, it has some very
nice improvements, such as disk labels, better man mechanism, and MX record
support in sendmail.
The problem is that we (PUPS/TUHS) haven't been able to find a Tahoe
tape with VAX binaries. I'm not sure if CSRG ever bothered to even make
one, although it's as simple as executing one script on a running system
(which they obviously had). Thus in order to run Tahoe, one would have to
cross-compile it first. It's a pain and takes a lot of expertise, so I
would strongly advise you to avoid effort duplication and wait until I do
it and put the product up in my home directory on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au.
Actually since KA650 is all I have right now and Tahoe doesn't support it
(but the support code appears later in the SCCS tree), I'll go directly
from Ultrix (my cross-compilation base) to Quasijarus1, my first release,
and won't bother with Tahoe. But for all practical purposes Quasijarus1
will be Tahoe plus KA650 support, shadow passwords, and bugfixes.
Hmm, maybe your have never heard of Quasijarus Project, so I'll explain
briefly what it is. I'm taking over UCB CSRG in terms of shepherding and
maintaining pure Berkeley UNIX(R). I will first re-create it by taking
their final SCCS tree and building my initial one, deciding piece by piece
what belongs to pure Berkeley UNIX(R) and should be kept, and what is POSIX
evil spirit or bloat and should be tossed. In general I draw the line right
around the Tahoe release (summer of 1988), but I'll include anything from
Reno and later code that's worth having, such as KA650 support and Reno's
DBM-based shadow password model. Basically, I want to create a system with
a classical (pre-Reno) look and feel which at the same time has all the
quality improvements and bugfixes ever made by Berkeley, even if they are
as late as 4.4BSD. The last classical release is Tahoe, so that's my base.
I will be using Tahoe to decide what should be included and what should the
look and feel be. Once I know from Tahoe that a given piece should be
included, I'll go to the SCCS file(s) for that piece and decide which post-
Tahoe deltas should be kept (because they are bugfixes or quality
improvements) and which deltas should be tossed (because they introduce the
evil spirit of POSIX or bloat).
How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately
hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I
was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I
have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a
working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the
sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1.
> If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd
> appreciate being redirected to them!
Right now there isn't, because my main VAX farm is currently off the
net. When I get it back on the net (no time estimate, at least several more
months), I'll set up a set of mailing lists for Quasijarus Project and
Berkeley VAX UNIX in general.
> OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is:
Totally disregard these instructions, they are for plain 4.3 ONLY. If
you are using Tahoe or Quasijarus1, the distribution already supports
MicroVAXen as shipped. If you don't want to use Tahoe or Quasijarus1 and
want to use plain 4.3, you are on your own.
> Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently
> in the archive, or not?
Reno doesn't have any limitations, it already supports KA630 and KA650,
just like Quasijarus1. I personally don't use it, though, because it is not
really True UNIX any more. With the evil spirit of POSIX and a bloat by a
factor of 2 in both binaries and sources, Reno is the beginning of the
destructive process that eventually (and necessarily) culminated with the
disbanding of CSRG.
> what non-
> microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750?
> 11/730?
Of the big VAXen, plain 4.3 supports 11/780, 11/750, 11/730, and Venus
(should have been called 11/790, but was unfortunately named 8600). Tahoe
adds, and Quasijarus1 and Reno retain, the support for 8200.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Message-Id: <981121154002.2a2000ed at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
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> The problem is that we (PUPS/TUHS) haven't been able to find a Tahoe
>tape with VAX binaries.
I think I *might* be able to provide part of the solution to this. I have
in my posession here a TK50 tape hand-labeled "4.3 Tahoe BSD". Let me upload
it to my directory on Minnie, and maybe with some help from you guys
we'll figure out what's in it.
It has been at least a year since I've looked at the contents of this
tape, but I was under the impression that it consisted mainly of binaries,
and had very little in the way of sources on it. I'll put images of
the tape files on Minnie (hmm - a full TK50 will probably be an overnight
job) and with a little luck we'll figure out how to
make the next step. (I didn't know that this was a sought-after tape
in the first place!)
I honestly don't know if this is a VAX Tahoe distribution or for something
else (MIPS, maybe?). It did fail to boot on my KA650 when I tried it, but
your notes indicate that this was to be expected because it wasn't a KA630.
And browsing through the contents of the tape does seem to indicate that it
might be for the VAX.
The tape has 4 files on it, about 50 Megabytes uncompressed, organized as
follows:
File 1: 1 record, 512 bytes.
File 2: 205 records, 10240 bytes each.
File 3: 320 records, 10240 bytes each.
File 4: 2135 records, 20480 bytes each.
The first block has no obvious text in it. Obvious guess is a boot block :-)
The second file appears to be an executable of some sort. Running
"strings" against it turns up evidence that this is some sort of standalone
utility that knows how to write to devices with names like "ra1", "hp3",
etc.
The third file is, I would guess, the dump of a root file system.
The string "/dev/ra1a" and machine name "kerberos.berkeley.edu" turn
up near the beginning, and the dump of what appears to be the "/dev"
directory has names such as tu0, tu1, hp0a-hp0g, rhp0a-rhp0g, etc.
The fourth file is a tar archive, and appears to contain mainly binaries,
with little in the way of sources. The are links in the tar archive
to things like "/sys/vaxuba", "/sys/vax", etc., but the /sys directory
itself isn't in the tar archive. (Would this possibly be in the third
file, which I guessed is a dump of the root filesystem? The other BSD-
derived distributions that I'm familiar with do not have "/sys" or
"/usr/src/sys" in the root filesystem!)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
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Some further clues, for anyone who's following this bit or
archeology:
The second file on the tape has the following string in it:
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 PDT 1990
trent at kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
The third file has this string in it:
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #4 Sat Jul 28 13:24:08 PDT 1990
trent at kerberos.berkeley.edu:/nbsd/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.allvax.
Additionally, in the third file, there appears to be some printf-type
strigns for configuring in the different possible CPU's supported:
VAX 8600, serial# %d(%d), hardware level %d(%d)
VAX 82%c0, hardware rev %d, ucode patch rev %d, sec patch %d, ucode rev %d
VAX 11/78%c, serial# %d(%d), hardware ECO level %d(%d)
VAX 11/750, hardware rev %d, ucode rev %d
VAX 11/730, ucode rev %d
MicroVAX-II-MicroVAX 3000, ucode rev %d
So the tape sticker says "Tahoe", the miniroot and Generic root claim
to be Reno, and the fourth file (the tar archive) has the following
mentions of Tahoe and Reno:
$ sear file4.tar_list tahoe
755 0 Jul 29 06:26:47 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/
444 2488 Jul 29 06:26:43 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/ace.0
444 3563 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/autoconf.0
444 1321 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/cons.0
444 6446 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/cy.0
444 4074 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/dr.0
444 2331 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/enp.0
444 4121 Jul 29 06:26:44 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/ik.0
444 2498 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/intro.0
444 386 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/lp.0
444 4427 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/mtio.0
444 9321 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/vd.0
444 3816 Jul 29 06:26:46 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/vx.0
444 2271 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/mem.0
444 2271 Jul 29 06:26:45 1990 share/man/cat4/tahoe/kmem.0
---> share/man/cat4/tahoe/mem.0
755 0 Jul 4 18:49:29 1990 share/man/cat6/tahoe/
$ sear file4.tar_list reno
%SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched
If someone who is more aware of the 4.3BSD histories than I am
(and I'm certain that I'm one of the least-aware folks around!)
can pinpoint where in the hierarchy this tape belongs, it'd help
settle a lot of my confusion!
In the meantime, the FTP connection to minnie seems to be holding
up admirably, and folks will be able to inspect the files for themselves
sometime around 7 PM EST tonight (Saturday here - that's either
tomorrow or yesterday in Australia, I can never remember which)
in the directory
/usr/home/shoppa/43bsd_tahoe
on minnie.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:26:26 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811212326.SAA16073 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD Tahoe binaries for uVax
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> Some further clues, for anyone who's following this bit or
> archeology:
This is clearly a 4.3BSD-Reno tape (for VAX). I'll look at it when it's
fully uploaded (you're saying it won't be until 19:00 EST, so it'll be
after the X-Files I guess), but I can bet that it's identical to the one in
/usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax on minnie (read by Rick Copeland from the
CSRG master provided by Marshall Kirk McKusick).
> The second file on the tape has the following string in it:
>
> 4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 PDT 1990
> trent at kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
The second file is the dd image of the miniroot filesystem. This string
appears in the /vmunix file inside (the kernel). kerberos.berkeley.edu was
a VAX. The tape in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax has also been pressed from
kerberos.berkeley.edu.
> The third file has this string in it:
>
> 4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #4 Sat Jul 28 13:24:08 PDT 1990
> trent at kerberos.berkeley.edu:/nbsd/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.allvax.
The third file is the dump of the full root filesystem. Again, this
string appears in the /vmunix file inside.
> Additionally, in the third file, there appears to be some printf-type
> strigns for configuring in the different possible CPU's supported:
>
> VAX 8600, serial# %d(%d), hardware level %d(%d)
> VAX 82%c0, hardware rev %d, ucode patch rev %d, sec patch %d, ucode rev %d
> VAX 11/78%c, serial# %d(%d), hardware ECO level %d(%d)
> VAX 11/750, hardware rev %d, ucode rev %d
> VAX 11/730, ucode rev %d
> MicroVAX-II-MicroVAX 3000, ucode rev %d
This is also obviously inside /vmunix. The set of supported CPUs is the
one for Reno.
> So the tape sticker says "Tahoe", the miniroot and Generic root claim
> to be Reno, and the fourth file (the tar archive) has the following
> mentions of Tahoe and Reno:
>
> [names on manpage directories mentioning tahoe]
It is Reno. Trust me. "tahoe" appears in the names of some manpage
directories because some manpages are architecture-specific (tahoe is the
name of a computer architecture, just like vax, hp300, i386, etc.). The
tape is mislabeled, that's all.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:55:01 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811220155.UAA16138 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: The files Tim Shoppa has just uploaded
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Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have just logged into minnie and diffed the files Tim Shoppa has just
uploaded against the 43reno.vax distribution in my home directory. They are
identical byte for byte, except that Tim's first file is severely
truncated. The first file contains the bootstraps and the standalone
programs, and for Reno it's about 140 KB. Tim's first file is only 512
bytes, although these bytes exactly match the first 512 bytes in the
correct first file.
Resolution: the files Tim has uploaded are completely superseded by the
authentic 4.3BSD-Reno/VAX distribution in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax and
/usr/PUPS/Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:27:48 -0500
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Message-Id: <981121212748.2a2001f3 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: 4.3-VAX distributions (was Re: The files Tim Shoppa has just uploaded)
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> I have just logged into minnie and diffed the files Tim Shoppa has just
>uploaded against the 43reno.vax distribution in my home directory. They are
>identical byte for byte,
Darn. And the label said it was a Tahoe distribution :-). You'll also
remember that I'm the one who found the V6 RL02 packs at UBC which, despite
all indications, are actually some sort of V7 system that has all the
internal labels reading "V6"!
> except that Tim's first file is severely
>truncated.
That would explain why I couldn't boot it, yep.
In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of 4.3-Reno.
(Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it
be completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
And what stands in the way of reading around the bad blocks on Kirk McKusick's
43tahoe_cci distribution? Even though I know that Rick Copeland doesn't have
all the fancy tape recovery equipment I have in my lab, is there some
fundamental problem preventing the use of "mt fsr" commands to skip the
bad block(s) and recover the rest of the "src" and "usr" tree?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811220509.AAA16197 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> That would explain why I couldn't boot it, yep.
Partially. You wouldn't be able to boot it on a MicroVAX by typing "B
MUA0" even if it were complete. The reason is that the standard tape-making
script writes the VAX-11 bootstraps on the tape, not the MicroVAX ones. The
two are completely different. The big VAXen with front-end processors,
microcode consoles and such can't boot from a tape by themselves. The
bootstraps that appear on standard BSD distributions are designed to be
loaded by manually typing in a little program from the console in hex and
manually transferring control to it. The hex codes for 4 such programs (for
different tape drives and controllers) appear in the installation docs.
They cannot be ported to MicroVAXen, however, because they use some
features that exist only on big VAXen.
MicroVAXen, however, have tape boot capabilities built right into their
ROMs. Much easier for the installer, needless to say. Also needless to say,
the protocol the ROM tape boot code uses is completely different from the
one the BSD developers have crafted for their very special purpose.
Therefore, a tape needs a completely different bootstrap in order to be
directly bootable on a MicroVAX. One was written for 4.3BSD-Tahoe, and it
appears in the distributed /usr/mdec. There are two problems, however.
First, the standard tape-making scripts don't put it on the tape. Second,
it only supports KA630. When KA650 support was added, everything else was
updated accordingly, but this one was apparently forgotten. In theory, the
code looks generic enough to run on KA650 out of the box, but in practice
it has a check for SID and refuses to run if it's not 08 (MicroVAX ii).
Right now I don't know enough VAX assembly language to remove this check or
extend to accept 0A (CVAX) as well.
> In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of
> 4.3-Reno. (Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
Do you mean the one in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax? How did you get it
to boot on a MicroVAX? Did you pull /usr/mdec/tmscpboot out of the tarball
and make a MicroVAX boot tape?
> We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
process.
> And what stands in the way of reading around the bad blocks on Kirk
> McKusick's 43tahoe_cci distribution? Even though I know that Rick
> Copeland doesn't have all the fancy tape recovery equipment I have in my
> lab, is there some fundamental problem preventing the use of "mt fsr"
> commands to skip the bad block(s) and recover the rest of the "src" and
> "usr" tree?
If you do this you will still miss something. OTOH, if you go to the
4.3tahoe directory on Kirk's 2nd CD-ROM, you won't miss anything, since all
of /usr and /usr/src is there. I can bet that the files on that CD-ROM
match the ones on the tape byte for byte.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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>> In any event, I am now very happy to now have a bootable copy of
>> 4.3-Reno. (Installing as I type, AAMAF.)
> Do you mean the one in /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax? How did you get it
>to boot on a MicroVAX? Did you pull /usr/mdec/tmscpboot out of the tarball
>and make a MicroVAX boot tape?
Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
"tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images. "format"
seems to crash badly, but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
machine :-).
There are other ways to start it up. For example, using an already-
running OS (some other Unix or VMS) and copying the miniroot from tape
to the swap area of an unused disk.
The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
>First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
>would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
>between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
>UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.)
Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
code. I'm willing to live with a bit more disk space usage, especially
for the promised speed benefits. It's not like KA630's or KA650's are speed
demons, and big cheap disks are readily available these days.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:00:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811220900.BAA06484 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Hi -
> From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
> To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
know there were any left :-) :-)
> Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
> "tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
Since PUPS is on a uVax kick at the moment I'll chime in with my
(not so fond) memories of trying to jack 4.3-Reno onto a uVax-II.
It was a perverse sort of fun but not something I'd willingly do
again. Burnout? Perhaps.
the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
> prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images. "format"
> seems to crash badly, but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
> machine :-).
What I ended up doing was using my 2.11BSD 11/73 to create a bootable
4.3-Reno tape for the uVax - all the pieces are there, just need a
system to 'dd' the files out with the right blocking factors, usw.
Then the fun really began. The SPL "probing" logic in the kernel
had a small problem when probing for MSCP controllers. As I recall
(and this is going back quite a few years) some 3rd party adaptors
ran at a different (lower) SPL than the probing logic expected - thus
the autoconfig routines raised the SPL higher than the interrupt
of the (Dilog I think) controller and the whole system hung. So,
to install the system you HAD to use DEC controllers - ok, I had a
RQDX3 and a couple RD53 drives present (the Dilog had a 319mb Miniscribe
disk). BUT 4.3-Reno had a bug in the MSCP driver and would not
recognize an honest to DEC RD53 drive! This was rapidly getting to be
unfun. I think the workaround (it's been a __long__ time so memory
is fuzzy) was to lie and call the drive an RA60 and then correct the
problem later. But to get the lie thru to the kernel I had to
use the standalone 'copy' program to copy a file (created on a PDP-11)
to the first couple sectors of the uVax's RD53. Sheesh!
> The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
> pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
> a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
You're quite welcome. Actually 4.3-Reno served as inspiration and
reminder of pain to avoid when it came time to implement 2.11BSD's
disklabel capabilities. I swore I'd never go thru the pain of the
kernel having labels but the standalone utilities lacking them
4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
> >First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> >would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> >between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
Can't be any version of Ultrix I ever used. At the time 4.3-Reno
came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD that DEC had corrupted
with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination. Affectionately known
as Buglix ;-) That was the same era that DEC had Ultrix-11 and that
was a mucked up 2.9BSD. Of course you have to realize DEC had "Mr.
Ken (Unix is Snake Oil) Olsen" around at the time 8-) UNIX is still
around - but DEC? No, I don't like Compaq confusers thank you ;)
4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
ignored all DEC machines.
> Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
> in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno). NFS doubles
the size of the kernel though (at least) so there's a memory penalty
to pay. It also brought many of the POSIX features (termios for
example).
> code. I'm willing to live with a bit more disk space usage, especially
> for the promised speed benefits. It's not like KA630's or KA650's are speed
> demons, and big cheap disks are readily available these days.
Disk is cheap. Especially for older drives (but you run the risk
that an old drive will die soon ;-(). Best to invest in a modern
SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and use current drives (that's what I did for
my 11/73 - adaptor is $$$ but the drives are cheap).
Boy, you're not just whistling Dixie (apologies to those outside the
US for which the reference is obscure). "Not a speed demon" doesn't
begin to describe it. I went, believe it or not, thru the work of
getting a newer GCC-2 (at the time I think 2.3.x was "new") to build
and run on a uVax-II under 4.3-Reno. The biggest problem was that
4.3-Reno was neither "old" (V7ish) Unix or "POSIX" (just getting off
the standard's writers desks). Getting GCC to build was a stop/go
effort for several days but in the end the build would work: about
23 hours (or so)!! Sheesh - a 11/73 can *completely* regenerate
itself from sources (all programs, manpages, etc) in about 28 hours.
It was an interesting experiment but the uVax-II has sat here for 2+
years without being powered up. At one time the thought was to port
4.4BSD over but everyone that _could_ do the work lost interest - I've
my PDP-11s and PPro systems to keep me busy so I haven't the time or
inclination to do much with a KA630 system. For "slow" I have a PDP-11
(lots of fun, keeps you humble with the address space limits ;)). For
'fast' I have a couple dual cpu PPro systems (running BSD/OS) that
can give a quad processor SUN Enterprise Server-4500 a run for their
money. I have no need of a "slow" computer that attempts to run
current day (bloated) software.
I've toyed with the idea of swapping the innards of the 11/93 and
the uVax. The KDJ11E would be a lot happier in a BA-123 than a BA-23;)
But that's as far as it's gone (thinking about it). So - if anyone
out there wants a uVax-II (9mb of memory but lots of disks and a 9-track
tape drive to go with) drop by my place (shipping's out of the
question). If you're more hardware capable than I perhaps we could
swap the stuff into a BA23 (smaller enclosure to drive home, ...).
Yikes and gadzooks - I was a bit verbose tonight (but my typing skills
are much improved! ;-)).
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
In-Reply-To: <199811220509.AAA16197 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 22, 98 00:09:52 am"
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:28:43 +0100 (MET)
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Mahlzeit
According to Michael Sokolov:
> MicroVAXen, however, have tape boot capabilities built right into their
> ROMs. Much easier for the installer, needless to say. Also needless to say,
Does somebody know, where I can get a cheap TK50 (only the drive, the
controller is still there) for my MicroVAXII?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:42:32 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811221742.MAA16309 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Steven M. Schultz <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
> know there were any left :-) :-)
I'm sure you know that domain names are case-insensitive. Also note that
in the InterNIC records everything is all uppercase. As far as the mail
user names go, they CAN be case-sensitive, but most OSes, even UNIX
(Sendmail), try to be on the safe side and ignore the case in this context.
> the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
> on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
> to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
> had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
>
> With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
> cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
This change occurred in Tahoe, NOT in Reno. Trust me. If you don't, look
at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci/srcsys.tar.gz and see for yourself.
> 4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
> standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
The disk label support first appears in Tahoe. Again, if you don't
believe me, look at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci.
> At the time 4.3-Reno came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD [...]
Ultrix v4.00, which I used to run on my main production VAX when my farm
was on the net, has _ALL_ enhancements from 4.3BSD (including DNS and DBM
passwd files) and most enhancements from Tahoe (including MX record support
in Sendmail). Its disk label mechanism is rumored to be incompatible with
Tahoe's, though (haven't had a chance to test this for myself).
> [...] that DEC had corrupted
> with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination.
Here I agree wholeheartedly! But hey, just ignore all SysVile and DEC
additions and pretend it's 4.3BSD! That's what I did.
> 4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
> and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
> at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
> ignored all DEC machines.
This pulled the thread that was holding everything together. Reno was
the beginning of the destructive process that eventually and inevitably led
to the disbanding of CSRG. Reno is the beginning of the end. One of the
main reasons I don't do Reno.
> Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno).
True. I will have to hack NFS into Quasijarus somehow at some point.
This is not for Quasijarus1, though.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:42:03 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811221742.MAA16307 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> Exactly. The details are all in tmscpboot.c. Prepend this to the
> "tape directory", write it to TK50, B MUA0, and you're at the "="
> prompt, from which you can execute the standalone images.
I know this.
> "format" seems to crash badly [...]
Of course! The documentation says clearly that it's for hp (780/750/8600
MASSBUS and clones) and up (RH-11 and clones) disks.
> [...] but one probably doesn't need that on a Q-bus
> machine :-).
Has nothing to do with Q-bus, it's the distinction between SMDish disks
and MSCP. But yes, for MSCP you are supposed to use the controller-specific
diagnostics for formatting. For DEC ones it's a pain, but most (all?)
third-party MSCP controllers have formatting utilities in their ROMs.
> There are other ways to start it up. For example, using an already-
> running OS (some other Unix or VMS) and copying the miniroot from tape
> to the swap area of an unused disk.
Here is my preferred way. It requires at least two disks. First boot
from an Ultrix tape. That's the easiest thing in the world probably
(assuming working hardware, of course, which I don't have right now). When
you get a choice between quick installation, custom installation, and
maintenance, choose the last one. This will drop you into the shell. Now
you have Ultrix running in a RAM disk, you can do anything you want with
your disks, and you can pull the Ultrix tape out and do anything you want
with the tape drive. Then you put the BSD tape in, advance to the second
file (the miniroot) with mt fsf, and dd it to partition c on one of the
disks. Why partition c and not partition b? Why need two disks in the first
place? Because I can bet that Ultrix and BSD will have different ideas
about the default location of partition b. Then extract mdec/rdboot and
mdec/bootra from the /usr tar image on the tape, cat them together, and dd
them to the beginning of partition c (the miniroot as shipped doesn't have
a bootblock). Then reboot from that disk. Now you have BSD running!
Disklabel the other disk the way you want. This will put the bootblocks on
it automatically. Then create the root and /usr filesystems on it and
restore them from the tape. You are all set!
True, this method imposes additional requirements (two disks and an
Ultrix tape). It's also a little cumbersome (the part about the miniroot
bootblocks). However, it has two advantages over the method with the
tmscpboot tape. First, you can use the stock BSD tape, not a hacked one.
Second, even in Reno tmscpboot supports only KA630 and not KA650. If you
know VAX assembly language (I don't yet) and have a machine where you can
rebuild it, you can fix this, but again you have extra requirements.
Of course, the proper solution is to significantly redesign BSD's
installation mechanism and make it a little more like Ultrix's. That's my
plan for Quasijarus2, although Quasijarus1 will still be like Tahoe/Reno.
> The compiled-in partition tables used during an install are a real
> pain compared to, say, a 2.11BSD installation, where disklabel is
> a standalone utility! (That's a real win, Steven!)
I agree wholeheartedly! A standalone disklabel program is part of my
plan for Quasijarus2. Again, Quasijarus1 will still be like Tahoe/Reno.
> Gees, looking at the install docs there are some very real improvements
> in Reno, especially in the filesystem and the speed of recompiled
> code.
The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811222241.JAA29811 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Minnie's new domain name
To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:31 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811220300.WAA16161 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 21, 98 10:00:59 pm"
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Dear Warren,
>
> I see you started changing *.adfa.oz.au to *.adfa.edu.au. Should we all
> start changing this in our notes, aliases, links, etc? And just out of
> curiosity, what's changing? What did OZ.AU mean? Did it mean Australian
> universities or what? Are you changing to EDU because that's what everyone
> else uses?
>
> And while we are at it, what's ADFA? I thought the school's name is
> UNSW, isn't it?
Hi Michael, yes I should put some email out. History lesson following....
Before the Internet reached Australia, the universities had a UUCP-based
mail/news system called ACSnet, where addresses were not bang-paths but
@-based. The ACSnet software did the route lookups. Anyway, all ACSnet
computers had a `domain' name ending in .oz, e.g kre at munnari.oz was a valid
email address.
When we finally got Internet-connected, our country suffix was .au. To
make the transition easier, we just tacked it on to the end of the existing
domain names, thus kre at munnari.oz became kre at munnari.oz.au
More recently, to bring Australia in line with Internet conventions, .oz.au
became .edu.au. Unfortunately, ADFA never bothered to do this switch until
mid-way through this year. Over the summer break, I'll add some smarts to
minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc. I'll keep it running indefinitely.
ADFA is the Australian Defense Force Academy: it has military cadets as
undergrads and civilians as postgrads. One half is run by the University of
New South Wales and teaches normal civilian university stuff. I belong to
this half. The other half is run by Defence, and teaches military history,
how to shoot with guns etc. I'm not involved with that side at all :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
back now. I hate PC hardware.
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CC: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Message-Id: <981122171550.2a200243 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: booting 4.3-reno without a tape drive
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately
>hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I
>was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I
>have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a
>working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the
>sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1.
For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
Ingredients:
Microvax II
Honest-to-goodness DEC disk or *fully* compatible 3rd-party disk.
*Fully* compatible means that it must have the same MSCP media
ID code and same number of tracks, sectors, and cylinders as
a drive already hardwired into vaxuba/uda.c. These are the
ones hardwired in:
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 60), "ra60", ra60_sizes, 42, 4, 2382 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 70), "ra70", ra70_sizes, 33, 11, 1507 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 80), "ra80", ra80_sizes, 31, 14, 559 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 81), "ra81", ra81_sizes, 51, 14, 1248 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 82), "ra82", ra82_sizes, 57, 14, 1423 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'C', 25), "rc25-removable",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE3('R', 'C', 'F', 25), "rc25-fixed",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 52), "rd52", rd52_sizes, 18, 7, 480 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 53), "rd53", rd53_sizes, 18, 8, 963 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'X', 50), "rx50", rx50_sizes, 10, 1, 80 },
Note that "rd54" is conspicuously missing, and I think the tabulated
rd52/53 sizes are as appropriate on a RQDX2, *not* a RQDX3.
Some other operating system to write the disk from
(for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The tape distribution of 43reno_vax from the PUPS archive. Specifically,
you need these files:
miniroot
mdec/rdboot, from usr.tar
mdec/bootra, from usr.tar
etc/etc.tahoe/disktab, from src.tar
Cooking directions:
The miniroot wants to live in the swap ("b") partition of the drive. So
your first task is to find the starting block number of the swap
partition from the extracted "disktab". For example, for an
RA81, the offset ("ob=") for an RA81 is 16422 blocks. So copy
the miniroot onto the target drive starting at block 16422
(i.e. if you're under 2.11 BSD and you've partitioned the
target drive, ra0, so that partition a covers the entire disk,
do a "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a seek=16422 bs=512")
In the "a" partition of the output drive you need a copy of "boot". The
miniroot already has a filesystem with this in it, so the lazy
thing to do is to just plop another copy of the miniroot, starting
at block 0 on the output disk (i.e. "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a")
You need the secondary bootstrap in blocks 1-15 of the target
disk. Put this down with "dd if=bootra of=/dev/rra0a seek=1 bs=512"
You need a block-0 boot block on the output disk. For a Microvax,
this is rdboot. (I believe raboot is appropriate on a Unibus
or BI-bus VAX). Lay this down with "dd if=rdboot of=/dev/rra0a"
Now move the output disk to your Microvax II configuration, and boot:
>>> b dua0/r5:1
2..1..0..
loading boot
ra0: unlabeled
Boot
: ra(0,0,1)vmunix
ra0: unlabeled
338756+108644+131004 start 0x238c
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 1998 PDT
trent at kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
REAL MEM=16773120
und so weiter.
Now, one obvious improvement to this would be to lay down a fake
4.3-ish disk label at the start of the output disk as well. This
way the reliance on a fully-geometry-compatible disk might be avoided.
I'll work on this in my Copious Free Time (TM).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Subject: Re: Minnie's new domain name
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:13:26 -0500
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Re Warren's postscript:
P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
back now. I hate PC hardware.
Perhaps it's time to dig up an old PDP-11?
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:43:37 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811222343.SAA16467 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: booting 4.3-reno without a tape drive
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
> tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
> tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
>
> Ingredients:
> [...]
> Some other operating system to write the disk from
> (for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
> RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The last part is the problem. At this location I have only one DEC
machine, and that's the KA650 I'm trying to get Ultrix on.
The guy with the MV3400 (and the TK70/TQK70 pair inside it) is still out
for the weekend, should hear something later this evening. If that falls
through and no one helps me with a spare TQK50, I'll have to come up with
another disk for this PC I'm typing this on, install FreeBSD on it, netboot
NetBSD/vax, and use that to load Reno over the net onto another disk (the
VAX has 5 of them). Much more painful, but still better than nothing.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:42:53 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811222342.SAA16465 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Minnie's new domain name
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Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Over the summer break [...]
I was first thrown off by this (yesterday was officially the first snow
day here in Cleveland), but then I remembered that Australia is in the
southern hemisphere, so your summer is our winter, right?
> I'll add some smarts to
> minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
> switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc.
OK, will change the HostName line in my .ssh/config. I'm already using
the new domain name when posting.
> P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
> back now. I hate PC hardware.
Then why do you use it? Why not run the PUPS/TUHS server on a VAX
running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus (or 4.3BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno if you can't wait), or
maybe a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
P.S. Your Sendmail is still putting .oz.au in the outgoing mail headers.
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:31:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811222331.PAA18529 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Hi -
> The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
> talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
> know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
> between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
UH, not quite so. Unless 4.3 and Tahoe used GCC (which they did
not). I'd say that there is a big difference between the 4.3
C compiler (pcc or whatever it started out as) and GCC. Tahoe,
while adding support for the CCI line of computers (tried to
get folks to buy one but they wouldn't go for it) did NOT use
GCC (which wasn't out yet or if it was had just started making
an appearance). Reno came with GCC though.
The older pre-Reno compilers (being straight K&R) didn't handle
prototypes - that's what you had "lint" for.
Steven Schultz
sms at Moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:32:07 -0500
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Message-Id: <981122113207.2a2001df at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: What *was* the Tahoe?
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I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
simple question:
What is the "Tahoe"?
It seems - based on the documentation supplied in the Tahoe-specific
installation docs - that "Tahoe" generically refers to any of several
VERSAbus machines in the Berkeley EECS department.
The CCI (Computer Consoles Inc.) Power 6/32 is frequently mentioned
as the CPU, but the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7
are also mentioned. Are these all the same architecture
and instruction set, or are they different? How was the CPU implemented -
on a chip? On a chipset? On a board? On multiple boards?
The information regarding peripherals is a bit clearer. There
appear to be many different supported VERSABus SMD-drive controllers
and at least one supported VERSABus 9-track controller.
Are any of the Berkeley EECS Tahoe machines still up and running?
How many were there? How many were outside Berkeley?
Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811230114.UAA16563 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG time, and I
would love to know the answer to it, as would Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG
folks are probably the only people on the planet who know the answer, and
it looks like Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811230114.UAA16565 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Steven M. Schultz <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Reno came with GCC though.
Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
in the Reno distribution _as a compressed tarball_, and it's used only for
the experimental and unsupported hp300 port, and that's only because there
is no pcc support for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:26:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811230226.SAA20820 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Hi -
> From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
> Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
> 4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
Oops - I actually fired up the uVax-II (first time in almost 3 years)
and typed 'gcc' and it told me 2.5.8
But as it turns out that was something I'd added later (with much work).
GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
thing" ;)
Steven
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To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 EST."
<199811230114.UAA16563 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:05:13 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick@mckusick.com>
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 -0500
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG
time, and I would love to know the answer to it, as would
Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG folks are probably the only
people on the planet who know the answer, and it looks like
Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
were labelled:
#ifdef tahoe
to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
for the CCI 6/32 machine.
Kirk McKusick
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From: Dave Horsfall <dave@fgh.geac.com.au>
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Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Kirk McKusick wrote:
> Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
> for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
> were labelled:
> #ifdef tahoe
> to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
> just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
> for the CCI 6/32 machine.
And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
had the instruction set of a Vax, but backwards, if you know what I
mean... The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0500
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Subject: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
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>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199811231709.MAA09886 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <199811220509.AAA16197 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 22, 98 00:09:52 am"
To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
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> > We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> > completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> > It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
>
> That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
> First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
> UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
> building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
> KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
> both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
> process.
Speaking of crusades.....(:+}}.... I sometimes feel like the orphan
child running BSD on the old IBM RT (I know, not a biggie vaxen iron,
but that is what I have and the cap that I don). It is not too
bad running 16M ram and a 20'' megapel color monitor, but the RISC
processor is running around 12mhz on an ISA bus which is not very fast.
I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
Few on the net know anything about them anymore, and docs are nil.
I asked around IBM, and sort of drew dumb quizzled looks, as if
it had vaporized long ago.
I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
The background of it all is a mystery.
The first is a ``build 0'' thing called AOS or AOS/4.3, and it
appears to be a somewhat vanilla 4.3BSD, or possibly might be
as late as Tahoe. It has pcc and a Metaware C compiler, and is not
very strange. Other than the compilers being somewhat broken and
the time never correct, it runs well, and feels like 4.3.
The second is a ``build 16'' and labelled Reno, but is running gcc
and related things. My suspicion is that it is a 4.4, but I am not
sure. It seems fairly plain and following the 4.4 docs pretty well.
I don't think it is really Reno, but was named that by someone back
in time for some developmental reason maybe having been started from
a Reno tree, although I am not sure.
The third is a ``build 433'' and labelled Lite, and seems to be somewhat
straight 4.4 and somethat Lite (has two intermixed source trees), and
is gigabyte in size, and rather strangely laid out. It may have been
the last build for the RT.
Unfortunately, original tapes and documents for these are long gone,
and I have only been able to pick up bits and pieces here and there.
I don't find mention of these ports anywhere in the usual docs, other
than a slight hint that they existed at one time. Supposedly, bits
are on a mystical CD that is reputed to exist, and I have heard of
two actual CD's that may have survived.
I have spent the last 6 months resurrecting the ports, and basically
have a reliable 4.3 running, a running but somewhat broken ``Reno''
or whatever it is (of all things vi is only 99% operational because
of terminal driver problems), and a broken but somewhat running
``4.4/4.4Lite'' or whatever that really is (it boots and barely
stays up, but I have been working on making it stay up).
Does anyone on the PUPS list remember what these things actually are,
and what level they are actually at? My historical curiosity is
getting the better of me, and like Michael, I tend to like the plain
model-T spartan simplicity of a 4.3 style machine. There really is
a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
is responsible for the differences in the bloat? I get binaries about
half the size in 4.3 compared to the 4.4whatevers I have. Is that just
a function of gcc and how it codes things or libraries? Anyway, it
has been a most refreshing learning experience getting these things up
and running again.
Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
Warren?
Out of curiosity, again, anyone else on the PUPS list running RT iron
or am I the last holdout? The few RT folks that I am familiar with
are all running AIX still, although they remember the BSDs. So much
seems to have been lost, already, or most of the machines have become
dumpster fodder.
Any insights, history, or horror stories about the old RT BSD ports are
most welcome.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:47:58 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811231747.MAA16896 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
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"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> writes:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
The University of California at Berkeley has never made any releases for IBM RT
and nor will I, so there are no BSD releases for IBM RT.
> There really is
> a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
> is responsible for the differences in the bloat?
I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
just on the compiler or the libraries.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: Pat Barron <pat@transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
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I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
who worked AOS, and find out.
As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
that's OK.
--Pat.
P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
having them around ... :-(
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:20:43 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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Dave Horsfall <dave at fgh.geac.com.au> writes:
> And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
> had the instruction set of a Vax [...]
Aha! I always suspected that the Tahoe architecture was somehow related
to VAXen, I just didn't know how. Now we all know...
> [...] but backwards, if you know what I
> mean...
I have noticed that the Tahoe architecture is big-endian (I use this to
easily tell between VAX and Tahoe binaries and filesystem dumps). Is this
what you mean? Or is there any more backwardness?
> The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
> FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
At least the FPU card was optional, since the Tahoe code in BSD has a
emulator for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:20:15 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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Steven M. Schultz <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
> thing" ;)
It's _ALWAYS_ a good thing, because it's DIVINE (written by Bell Labs
Gods themselves), while gcc and others are mere mortals. Actually, gcc is
even worse than a mere mortal, since it's GNU. It comes directly from the
Inferno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> writes:
> That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
> the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
> these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
> ports?
Well, they have to be compatible somehow, since the same BSD tape was
used for all of them. Actually, there is much more to it. The Tahoe
architecture was specifically designed for BSD. CCI first made a vendor
release for their machines, kinda like SunOS and Ultrix, based on 4.2BSD.
Then some time after the 4.3BSD release CSRG designed to integrate CCI's
changes into the mainstream BSD tree. The result was named 4.3BSD-Tahoe.
What's interesting is that 4.3BSD-Tahoe does not have any bootblocks for
the Tahoe architecture, and the documentation often refers to the BSD
kernels being loaded by the system ROM on Tahoe. As you can imagine, having
the system ROM load your OS's kernels is one hell of a requirement, and the
Harris and Unisys machines would have to REALLY compatible with the CCI for
this to work. My guess would be that they were identical clones, just like
the PC clones that run unmodified PC-DOS.
> And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
If I'm not mistaken, there is a city somewhere on the west side of the
U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we already
have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
"renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pretty
damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199811231842.NAA10244 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981123125810.17938D-100000 at grant.transarc.com> from Pat Barron at "Nov 23, 98 01:05:13 pm"
To: pat at transarc.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:42:50 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
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> I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
> only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
> includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
> who worked AOS, and find out.
It might be good to find out any info or history or whatever, if anyone
still knows anything. If IBM does not particularly want it, it might
be nice to add to the archives, as an educational one-up on Gates.
> As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
> 1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
> and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
> that's OK.
Then what are the `Reno' and `Lite' builds that I have. I was assuming
they were all related, or were there other ports done outside IBM?
Now I am less clear on what it is I actually have......
> P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
> in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
> the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
> enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
> having them around ... :-(
Darn! Always one step behind and two weeks late.....
If there are any leftover AOS docs, or any leftover boards, particularly
the external ESDI, SCSI, TAPE, or ethernet boards, or any leftover mice,
that would be nice to locate. Also, a spare tape drive would not hurt.
Dupster fodder......(:+{{.....
Bob Keys
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:21 -0800
To: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: BSD Network Version 2 upload
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PUPS List,
I have just put BSD Network Version 2 up on Minnie in the incoming
directory. This is from a
tape passed to me from Mr. Kirk McKusick. The file includes a readme and
is zipped with WinZip
version 6.22.
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:37:17 -0500
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199811231937.AA08069 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
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< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
bet or a reason to party.
Allison
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:34:05 -0800
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
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At 02:37 PM 11/23/98 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>< U.S. called Tahoe/Reno. The BSD developers probably thought "OK, we alre
>< have Tahoe, let's have Reno too." Reno also probably stands for
>< "renovation", although IMHO sawing the branch you are sitting on is pret
>< damn stupid and certainly doesn't qualify as "renovation".
>
>Tahoe is Lake Tahoe California, Reno is in Nevada. The connection is
>the two of the cities are connected by I80, The same road you'd take to
>get from Boston to Berkeley. Lake Tahoe is a resort area in the mountains
>about 50miles (or so) west of Reno.
>
>In those cities sawing the branch your sitting on may well be a paying
>bet or a reason to party.
>
>Allison
Well since I live so close to Lake Tahoe and Reno (Sacramento is half way
between Tahoe and Berkeley) I have got to get my two cents in here. My
guess is that Berkeley is well known as a pro party University and Reno and
Tahoe are the main party spots on the west cost! Sounds right to me!
Rick
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:16:41 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811232116.QAA17086 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
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Rick Copeland <rickgc at calweb.com> writes:
> I have just put BSD Network Version 2 up on Minnie in the incoming
> directory.
Warren, I think this one should go into minnie's anonymous FTP area,
since it does not require a UNIX license and was specifically designed to
be publicly distributable. I didn't do any repacking on it in my home
directory, since it's just one big tarball. I've done a tar tvf on the
tarball, though, and the listing produced is in /usr/home/msokolov/NET2.lst
on minnie.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811232217.JAA03246 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
To: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:17:39 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811231709.MAA09886 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Nov 23, 98 12:09:28 pm"
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In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
> I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
> and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
> to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
> The background of it all is a mystery.
>
> Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
> Warren?
I tell you what, Bob. I'll mirror whatever you've got :-)
But you'll have to organise it and write the READMEs!
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811232219.JAA03263 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 4BSD bloat
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:29 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <199811231747.MAA16896 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 23, 98 12:47:58 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
>I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
>Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
>The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
>just on the compiler or the libraries.
I can hear Steven Schultz say that the address space limitations of a
16-bit architecture help to minimise software bloat :-)
Warren
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:53:48 -0800
To: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
From: Rick Copeland <rickgc@calweb.com>
Subject: Upload BSD4.3 Rev. 2, Foreign Master
Cc: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Dear PUPS list,
I have up loaded to Minnie the "BSD4.3 Revision 2 for VAX, Foreign Master"
passed to me by
Mr. Kirk McKusick. This tape image is zipped with WinZip 6.22 and includes
a readme file.
Sincerely,
Rick Copeland
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811240104.MAA03819 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Upload BSD4.3 Rev. 2, Foreign Master
To: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:04:26 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981123155338.00935c40 at pop.calweb.com> from Rick Copeland at "Nov 23, 98 03:53:48 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Rick Copeland:
> Dear PUPS list,
>
> I have up loaded to Minnie the "BSD4.3 Revision 2 for VAX, Foreign Master"
> passed to me by Kirk McKusick.
> Rick Copeland
It's now available in Distributions/4bsd/43rev2 in the PUPS Archive.
Warren
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From: James Lothian <simul8@simul8.demon.co.uk>
To: "pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: 4.3-VAX distributions
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:15:24 -0000
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Just thought I'd throw my oar in: my 11/750 is currently running a version
of 4.3 taken off a set of tapes I saved from being thrown out by a Uni
department I used to work for. The labels on the tapes say:
Ultrix
4.3+NFS Wisconsin UNIX 1/15/87
And another label says:
* The contents of this tape are distributed to UNIX/32V,
System 3 or System 5, and SUN 3.0 NFS licencees only,
subject to your software agreement with AT&T (Western
Electric), your license agreement with the Regents of the
University of California, and your license agreement with
SUN Microsystems.
* The University of Wisconsin - Madison Computer System
Laboratory assumes no responsibility for unauthorized use
of these contents by non-licensed entities.
RCS strings seem to indicate that the code was maintained by
someone called Tad Lebeck.
As far as I can tell, it's mainly a fairly stock early 4.3 with no disk-labels,
with all the sun rpc/yp/nfs stuff grafted on and a whole lot of bugs that
I've had no end of fun fixing.
Does anybody know anything about the history of this version? In particular,
does it bear any real relation to Ultrix, or is the tape just mis-labelled?
If anybody else out there is running this thing and wonders why ptrace(2) causes
such mayhem, or why portmap crashes when they try to run YP, I'd be happy to
supply patches....
James
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From: "Eric Edwards" <eekg@ix.netcom.com>
To: <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:40:51 -0500
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The Power 6/32 Tahoe was a product of Computer Consoles Inc. (CCI). The
internal codename was "Tahoe", as all the CCI processors were named after
lakes in the US (others I can remember were Erie and Huron). It was
originally intended to compete with the VAX-11/780 - depending on the
benchmark it was 5 to 10 times faster than the VAX and much smaller and
cheaper.
The base processor consisted of 5 boards - implemented with AMD 2900 series
bit slice processors, PLAs and 74F series parts. Surprisingly the bit-slice
processors were used in the MMU - the actual ALU was 74F181s. It was a big
endian machine that was sort of a cross between a VAX and a Motorola 68K.
As mentioned elsewhere, it is rumored that if you swap the nibbles in the
instruction bytes they end up the same as the VAX...
I think it also had some odd features: the cache was on the processor side
of the mmu -- so it was indexed by virtual address and instructions were
cached in microcode form.
As guessed from the lack of boot blocks, there was another board in the
system -- the Console Processor (CP). It was a 68000 based Versabus single
board computer. The boot monitor understood BSD filesystems on both tape
and disk. It basically loaded the microcode into the CPU, loaded the boot
image (/boot?) into memory, and then started the main CPU.
CCI ported 4.2BSD to run on the Tahoe and the changes were rolled into the
4.3-Tahoe version. They also ran System V (including a dual processor
version) and CCI's own fault-tolerant Unix - Perpos.
I think the last of the Berkeley Tahoe machines ended up at Rochester
Institute of Technology's Computer Science House (http://www.csh.rit.edu).
Some guys up there were attempting to do some work with 4.4BSD and the
Tahoe.
I can probably dig up more information if anyone needs it...
-----Original Message-----
From: SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 6:47 PM
Subject: What *was* the Tahoe?
> What is the "Tahoe"?
>Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)
>
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
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J. Joseph Max Katz <jkatz at cpio.net> writes:
> Does Net/2 produce a completely working binary system?
No. It contains only the sources, and if you try to build it, you'll get
stuck immediately because about half of the source files were simply
deleted.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
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Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'll check with SCO
That's a good idea. Please let us know what they say.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:19:49 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811240219.VAA17236 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
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When I wrote in a previous message:
> Actually, gcc is even worse than a mere mortal,
> since it's GNU. It comes directly from the Inferno.
I didn't know that Lucent has a product named Inferno, as some people
have pointed out to me. In any case, I meant the actual Inferno, also known
as Hell, i.e., the fifth dimension of the Universe inhabited and ruled by
Satan, not the Lucent product.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811240327.OAA04039 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: BSD Network Version 2 upload
To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:27:57 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199811240218.VAA17230 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 23, 98 09:18:03 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > I'll check with SCO [what their stance is on the Net/2 tape]
>
> That's a good idea. Please let us know what they say.
Dion at SCO doesn't even know what Net/2 is. I've sent him some details.
He wants to know exactly what the settlement was between USL and UCB in
regards to the Net/2 tape. I don't have the exact particulars here
(just a News article from Keith Bostic), so I've asked Kirk if he could
give me the exact ruling. I'll pass on any words from SCO to the mailing
list as I receive them.
Warren
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:47:41 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave@fgh.geac.com.au>
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Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I have noticed that the Tahoe architecture is big-endian (I use this to
> easily tell between VAX and Tahoe binaries and filesystem dumps). Is this
> what you mean? Or is there any more backwardness?
It's basically a big-endian Vax. When disassembling code, I never knew
whether to wear my Vax hat or my Motorola hat :-) I believe that the
Harris 7, the ICL Clan etc were just badge-engineered. Nice machine,
and no relation to the CCI 5/32 and the 5/32X (680x0) other than the
manufacturer.
> At least the FPU card was optional, since the Tahoe code in BSD has a
> emulator for it.
And the Ethernet card cost AU$10,000 (ca. 80s). It had a STUPID ribbon
cable connector to the D15 socket; misalign it by one pin (easy to do),
since there was no key; you had to count 13 pins down) and you blew the
card. I did, once...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:03:05 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199811240703.CAA17330 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: 4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign
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Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
I have analyzed Rick's 4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign images in
Distributions/4bsd/43rev2 and converted them into the standard BSD release
format used by me as the maintainer of 4.3BSD. I didn't change the contents
of any files, I just gave the directory and all files their systematic
names (being systematic and punctual in packaging and naming is essential
to maintaining an archive of many different versions of software). I also
uncompressed and recompressed all files so that the names stored inside the
gzip headers are correct. Finally, I have created a tar tvf listing for
every tarball. The result is in /usr/home/msokolov/43rev2_f. Warren, please
put this into the main PUPS archive.
Note, though, that usr.tar (file 4) is cut short. I have indicated this
in the BROKEN.TXT file. Also this is a "foreign" tape, meaning that it has
a slightly crippled crypt(3) and missing crypt(1). Given that this tape is
both a little broken and "foreign", CWRU's 4.3BSD tape images in
/usr/home/msokolov/43.vax may be a better choice for some people. They have
normal crypt(3) and crypt(1) and have absolutely no defects. (That's the
advantage of 1600 BPI over 6250 BPI. Rick seems to be having a really hard
time reading 6250 BPI 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe tapes, while CWRU's 1600 BPI 4.3BSD
tapes read fine on the first attempt.) Rick's ones are Rev 2, though, and
CWRU's are not.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Version 7 for the PERQ
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:46:15 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain@dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
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A question which I have been meaning to ask for a while and which I
was reminded of by the discussion of the AMD 2900 bit slice processors
was a version of AT&T V7 unix for the ICL PERQ computer. This was so
similar to the original that the manual was an original AT&T
one with instructions on which pages to pull out and throw
away and some new ones to insert. [basically all PDP11 hardware
specific ones go; and there are some new bits such as chatter as
simple serial comms program]. I have several binary only
distributions of this -- it was called PNX.
What I'd be really interested to know is how it evolved from V7;
in particular the new version of `m40.s'. In particular it seems
to run on top of a rather weird instruction set which isn't
very like that of the PDP11 (which would have seemed like an obvious
choice at first sight for a soft-microcodeable machine). The
use of as and cc with options to write out assembler is considered
as `not a user option' in the manual; although it still works.
I have to say that in general the port seems quite bad and in
need of lots of work to make it correctly functional. However
it's nice to have V7 readily available on a graphics workstation
with 1Mb RAM and 768x1024 display :-)
I'd be very interested to find out more of the source to PNX
or especially the microcode
Alan
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To: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 EST."
<981123110552.2a200243 at trailing-edge.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick@mckusick.com>
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From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0500
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)
The 4.3-Reno distribution was named after the city of that name
in Nevada. We picked that name because the 4.3-Reno distribution
was an interim release on the way to 4.4BSD and hence was not as
fully polished or tested as our production releases. The idea was to
remind recipients that it was more of a "gamble" to run Reno than
our production releases.
Kirk McKusick
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811242305.KAA05334 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Net2 Status: likely outcome
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:05:02 +1100 (EST)
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I haven't heard back from SCO re the Net/2 status, but given that USL
was sold to Novell & then to SCO, and they have copies of all the legal
documents, I'm sure that SCO will quickly find out the details of the
USL vs UCB settlement.
Kirk has told me that the settlement explicitly stated that a set of
files from Net/2 was not to be distributed, and that this set of files
was not to be revealed: this was done to prevent a subset of Net/2
from being freely redistributed. CSRG made changes to about 70 files
and deleted three files outright.
Kirk is legally unable to reveal the list of affected files in Net/2.
I've just had a poke around the SCCS files on CD#4 on the CSRG CD set.
Several of the SCCS comments for the kernel files have the word USL in
them:
add USL's copyright notice
changes for 4.4BSD-Lite requested by USL
There's also a list of binary-only files in BSD/386 1.1 at
http://www.bsdi.com/info/lawsuit/940208.update
I assume, therefore, that it wouldn't be too hard to find out the set of
files in Net/2 affected by the settlement.
Therefore, once SCO reads through the legal documents (which they now own),
I'd be pretty sure that they will still treat Net/2 as contaminated, and
people will need a 32V license in some form in order to legally acquire
a copy of the Net/2 tape.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811242356.KAA05513 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Also: PUPS digest mail list
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:09 +1100 (EST)
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I should also say that there's a digest form of the PUPS/TUHS mail list
which comes out twice weekly. If you'd rather be on that list, please
send me some email.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199811250100.MAA05738 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:00:17 +1100 (EST)
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Just FYI, net/2 afficionados might care to look around in
ftp://ftp.uu.net/systems/unix/bsd-sources
I assume that they are in a legally dubious situation.
Warren
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1998-08-05 1:57 ` A Decision :-) Greg Lehey
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