From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:54:48 -0500 Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Message-ID: <199901252354.AA02014@world.std.com> ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id UAA08025 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma008023; Mon, 25 Jan 99 20:11:17 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id UAA05067; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:15:26 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma005064; Tue, 26 Jan 99 01:15:24 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA03071; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:25:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:25:12 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260125.UAA03071 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why not have VAX ones too? But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site. BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group (PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for Ancient DEC. And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD distributions). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13004 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:35 +1100 (EST) Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12999 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.250.164.80]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA24603 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:22:21 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Subject: 4.4BSD Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603 at p2350> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, why this version isn't in the pups archive ? cheers, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13171 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13165 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id VAA17162 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id VAA23416 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <19990126012214.AAA24603 at p2350> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603 at p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > > cheers, > emanuel It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output from CSRG. Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? Is it feasible to do so now? I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would VAX, using the old VM system? I'd assume hp300 would work, since it was the primary development platform, right? Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13220 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13215 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id VAA08488 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma008486; Mon, 25 Jan 99 21:21:20 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id VAA05386; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:25:29 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma005384; Tue, 26 Jan 99 02:25:25 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA03105; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260235.VAA03105 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading _ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13461 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13455 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:43 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id WAA08599 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma008597; Mon, 25 Jan 99 22:09:37 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id WAA05588; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:13:45 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma005586; Tue, 26 Jan 99 03:13:43 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA03123; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260323.WAA03123 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. See my previous posting. > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > from CSRG. You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 tape was pressed. > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different matter. > Is it feasible > to do so now? I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > VAX, using the old VM system? I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > was the primary development platform, right? Yes. > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? Yes. You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected. I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line. The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this: V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD (UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael Sokolov). For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm carrying it into the next millennium. Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13519 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13514 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:11 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA02367; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02518; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:05 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199901260317.AA02518 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk <> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! < ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:36:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id XAA08805 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma008803; Mon, 25 Jan 99 23:36:41 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id XAA05947; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:40:49 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma005945; Tue, 26 Jan 99 04:40:45 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA03161; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:50:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:50:33 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260450.XAA03161 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on 730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work. Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself, but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface) and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a UNIX-supported DEBNI! The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14104 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14099 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id XAA13322 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA02557 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <199901260323.WAA03123 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. > > See my previous posting. > > > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > > from CSRG. > > You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives > CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it > existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 > tape was pressed. > > > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? > > You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored > on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some > point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different > matter. > > > Is it feasible > > to do so now? > > I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the > 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > > > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > > VAX, using the old VM system? > > I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But > definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the > kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- > porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > > > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > > was the primary development platform, right? > > Yes. > > > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? > > Yes. > > You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to > bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical. > in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from > True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock > back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's > post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. > > If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official > maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further > development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD > never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX > release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm > maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true > successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I encourage you to do it, I suppose. All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature set is horrifying to contemplate. Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work done. At least that's my personal take on it. I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the "True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about _my_ religious hot buttons. :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14158 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04633; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93369; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Thor Lancelot Simon Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260323.WAA03123 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809 at rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809 at rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from >> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock >> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's >> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. >> >> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official >> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further >> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD >> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX >> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm >> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true >> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, > nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work > done. At least that's my personal take on it. Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:14 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14186 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04650; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93393; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Sokolov Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image) Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260450.XAA03161 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to break these laws, no matter what you may think of them. > One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest > available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX > system. Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't endanger others with your views on legality. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14415 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14409 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:47 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16989; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rick from rickgc at calweb.com server @sac2-110.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.110 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90 at pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc at pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800 To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Rick Copeland Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk No problem! At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> Hi all, >> why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > >Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness >of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland >has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. > >Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading >_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, >please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can >take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). > >Michael Sokolov >TUHS 4BSD Coordinator >4.3BSD-* Maintainer >Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer >Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 >ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu >TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ >Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA14579 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA14574 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:13 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id CAA09065 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma009063; Tue, 26 Jan 99 02:30:59 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id CAA07760; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:35:08 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma007758; Tue, 26 Jan 99 07:35:07 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA03238; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:44:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:44:55 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260744.CAA03238 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: VAX EPROM upgrades Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear VAX users, Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard. The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14811 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14806 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:32 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id DAA09200 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma009198; Tue, 26 Jan 99 03:26:27 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id DAA08013; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:30:36 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma008011; Tue, 26 Jan 99 08:30:32 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA03265; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:19 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260840.DAA03265 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > encourage you to do it, I suppose. You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's supposed to be driven. > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > History is history. Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the previous CSRG maintainer. > Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. > [...] gets very little useful work done. Check out the Quasijarus features page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less than a month ago. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14823 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14818 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:52 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id DAA09206 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma009204; Tue, 26 Jan 99 03:26:47 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id DAA08017; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:30:56 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma008015; Tue, 26 Jan 99 08:30:53 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA03267; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:40 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901260840.DAA03267 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name > BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14866 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14861 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05782; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA94514; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Sokolov Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260840.DAA03267 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name >> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. > > That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even > yours. You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > of University of California. Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley License. > The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted > modification and distribution of modified versions. Precisely. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA15026 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15021 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:31 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id EAA09344 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma009342; Tue, 26 Jan 99 04:54:25 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id EAA08275; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:58:34 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma008273; Tue, 26 Jan 99 09:58:29 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA03320; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:08:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:08:17 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901261008.FAA03320 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of becoming the new principal maintainer. > > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > > of University of California. > > Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley > License. I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any agreements that they could terminate. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg at localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" To: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261008.FAA03320 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some > twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I > suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and > will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been > using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly > decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using > it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in > full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is > still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the > Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer > version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to > modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of > becoming the new principal maintainer. Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ... I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted) that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody (including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <199901260840.DAA03265 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > supposed to be driven. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree about this. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD > to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of > arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like > 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup > systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. [...] > First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and > authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems > Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could > conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely > confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it. > Check out the Quasijarus features page: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html > > So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less > than a month ago. It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <199901261008.FAA03320 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least by extension, Mike Karels? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518 at world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in the orginial distribution The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? Thanks alot, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA16975 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id OAA10709 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma010707; Tue, 26 Jan 99 14:30:18 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10614; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:34:27 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma010612; Tue, 26 Jan 99 19:34:23 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03412; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:12 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901261944.OAA03412 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Joerg B. Micheel wrote: > I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. 1995 - 1980 = 15 1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements. If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years. > That > is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no > such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". > You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e., maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions. I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago. When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words? > And since the core team of BSDI today > consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they > keep calling their work BSD ? No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested, they have no authority to bar others from doing the same. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA16982 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id OAA10714 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma010712; Tue, 26 Jan 99 14:30:39 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10624; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:34:48 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma010619; Tue, 26 Jan 99 19:34:46 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03415; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:34 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901261944.OAA03415 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least > by extension, Mike Karels? Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm assuming that he has nothing against it either. What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be universally agreed to be unethical. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA17008 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA17003 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:14 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id OAA10720 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma010718; Tue, 26 Jan 99 14:31:08 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10634; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:35:17 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma010632; Tue, 26 Jan 99 19:35:15 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03418; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:45:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:45:04 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901261945.OAA03418 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig, I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up. Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close 4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special "emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for 4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better than pure Ultrix. > But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. No, this is not my definition. > I > want support for the hardware I own This will be done if you are willing to cooperate. > and features like mmap() and NFS. Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're > complaining about. Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only. 4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse. > You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value > of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release, it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe, I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either. > As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's all. > I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite > like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in > the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair > number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they > did. I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me himself. > It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds instead of words. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/