* Installing UNIX on an 11/94
@ 1999-12-14 21:19 Steven M. Schultz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Steven M. Schultz @ 1999-12-14 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi -
> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
> this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
> otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
> I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a
Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-)
> Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
> should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
> just 9600)
SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in
the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol).
I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates
to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than
9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets.
> Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
> run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
Ah, yes indeed! As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size
is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have
any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it
should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly).
Obviously the other way around would not work ;)
> Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;)
Steve
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com
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>> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
>> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
> Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
> "toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is.
The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
(or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
firmware.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Installing UNIX on an 11/94
[not found] <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>
@ 1999-12-17 16:10 ` Johnny Billquist
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Johnny Billquist @ 1999-12-17 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
> >
> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
DEUNAs lying around).
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
>
> Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
RA82: 622 MB
RA92: 1.2GB
All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-)
> > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
>
> A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
> do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912171826.KAA04099 at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> RA82: 622 MB
> RA92: 1.2GB
That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
the PDP-11
The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
> > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
>
> TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912171822.KAA04095 at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
noise from what I have seen.
> Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> DEUNAs lying around).
I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912171822.KAA04095 at moe.2bsd.com>
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
>
> An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
> noise from what I have seen.
Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of
course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-)
(And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately,
both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-(
> > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> > DEUNAs lying around).
>
> I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
> lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
> The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
> DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA.
Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this
is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what
it is for, or anything.
Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work
with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus
machines...
Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around
the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > RA82: 622 MB
> > RA92: 1.2GB
>
> That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
> the PDP-11
>
> The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
>
> :pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
>
> and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
>
> :pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
You got me. :-)
> > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> >
> > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
>
> Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop
development of Unibus peripherials.
I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Installing UNIX on an 11/94
[not found] <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com>
@ 1999-12-16 9:42 ` Arno Griffioen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 1999-12-16 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
> will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
> (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
> but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right
date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock.
Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly!
I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The
batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but
no problem either..
> See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
> code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
> firmware.
Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until
pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty
well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned
because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better'
service with a Micro$oft solution.
Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over
the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-)
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Installing UNIX on an 11/94
@ 1999-12-13 19:59 Tim Shoppa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Tim Shoppa @ 1999-12-13 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
>> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
>> or installing UNIX from it..
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
>
> Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
> TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
That wasn't too bad. You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :)
Steve
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am"
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
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> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based,
otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded').
Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
just 9600)
> RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.
> DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
Worth a shot..
> The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
> be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the
> standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
> be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a
> rebuild of the freelist will be needed.
Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
OK. Got that.
Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-)
Thanx for the help!
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Installing UNIX on an 11/94
@ 1999-12-13 9:18 Arno Griffioen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 1999-12-13 9:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
along the way.
No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast?
I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..
I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
or installing UNIX from it..
I don't have any other UNIBUS cards, so I can't plug my TK70 into
the 11/94..
Any thoughts on the subject are welcome..
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:35:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912131935.LAA18041 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
>
> OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
on the tape drive being junked.
> No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
> What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast?
>
> I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
> filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
> off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..
Yes, it should be possible. You will need to run one of the emulators
(either Bob Supnik's or Willi Begemot's "P11"). The tricky part
will be in the geometry/size of the disk image. The emulators
do not know about MSCP drives so you will have to go thru the bootstrap
process using an SMD ('xp' driver) drive and pretend you have a
RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.
DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the
standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a
rebuild of the freelist will be needed.
Experimentation - I think it'd take a few tries to get it right ;)
> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
> or installing UNIX from it..
No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-12-17 16:10 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
1999-12-14 21:19 Installing UNIX on an 11/94 Steven M. Schultz
[not found] <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>
1999-12-17 16:10 ` Johnny Billquist
[not found] <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com>
1999-12-16 9:42 ` Arno Griffioen
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1999-12-13 19:59 Tim Shoppa
1999-12-13 9:18 Arno Griffioen
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