From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27198 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2023 22:11:52 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 23 Feb 2023 22:11:52 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F50B42261; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 08:11:46 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1677190306; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=HPvvfivO92zXS48mO/xcFIZ8UVmZ5kh3GEIGa4/Csq8=; b=oQ7AVvnff96XqneVK0ztMtj9ns/uhSMUbsa7HRhM/j2VgnUnwAV58g45b1CnKZLTtD0/ZC 7aEqJlYiv0GJXw+tiY/O9fmTDww+XVbGe1+5qmxoSZN9jIqNZz52losAZFymQb80VLtbMk KjHJJeMnU3yoEHiz4fHt8zHSUYuuWSk= Received: from mail-40141.protonmail.ch (mail-40141.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.141]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E218B42254 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 08:11:37 +1000 (AEST) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:11:31 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1677190295; x=1677449495; bh=HPvvfivO92zXS48mO/xcFIZ8UVmZ5kh3GEIGa4/Csq8=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=zYoyj1z+L61x7s38w/X/RLJg8miD+sm2mF2RkBju7M7bMvRpUg3HtsvEBULQDrJQM RBrHicjnbmsn/tkSEI//NeL/fDdyZkfD9jxBMSX5yDu5AmlGQ+eQqUbFZTh4IcdGK1 kxNb7JrWtCC5WrktzZzgKRE3nRSfRKrD7Sz+aCPBjF6/Scaky4EFLij1WFkUrkdxQZ hKIWcuHX0uM8N9fNw9rKr05kaOC863eppWODM7oypwP3lKxYgsVXkfUUqhK7ZhTGWe v/or1jvERQ09F8Pw7XrLgdic1PMZFWguA2h54VllX6/9rjYKCg2uDQBTK0P5LhoE44 lauNuBulQSZ9A== To: Paul Ruizendaal Message-ID: <1dhgF9hHhWQpilH7FnvrLre83BKzisxzxjZYUJKw00-xBa7PStIxJNFrO_zoGobWMPLBHTacFioWqbqPXGbEeWHXw-GTmTq5MeKEyiA38iE=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <76DBD7F1-0419-4CF6-9249-866B0E11C73E@planet.nl> References: <76DBD7F1-0419-4CF6-9249-866B0E11C73E@planet.nl> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: Q64SGBSVCXS6JP7PZHXWXEULZDNQGSSU X-Message-ID-Hash: Q64SGBSVCXS6JP7PZHXWXEULZDNQGSSU X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Origins of the SGS (System Generation Software) and COFF (Common Object File Format) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco Basic-16......augh I feel like I actually saw a Basic-16 eval board of some= kind pop up in auctions in my documentation search the past few years. I = thought about bidding but I didn't, could've had some cool hardware to repl= y back with pictures of. Lesson learned, if something catches my attention= enough I should probably research it more closely. Thanks for the article link, that pretty much captures the sort of "origin = story" I was seeking out on both the tools and format. I now realize I cou= ld've known this already but didn't read far enough in the '84 Bell journal= , I've got copies of that and the '78 one, I forget how many juicy details = are in there that didn't make it into manuals and technical reports. All t= he more reason to go back through and take some notes... - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 1:37 PM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:38:25 +0000 > > Subject: [TUHS] Re: Origins of the SGS (System Generation Software) > > and COFF (Common Object File Format) > >=20 > > For the sake of timelines: > >=20 > > June 1980 - Publication date on the front page of the 3.0 manual in whi= ch the utilities are still very much research for PDP-11 and 32V-ish for VA= X where distinctions matter. > >=20 > > June 1981 - Publication date on the front page of the 4.1 manual in whi= ch the man-pages very much refer to all of this as the "3B-20 object format= " > >=20 > > June 1982 - Publication date on the front page of the 5.0 manual by whi= ch point these same pages had been edited and extended to describe the "com= mon object file format" > >=20 > > Additions at the 1981 release include dump(1), list(1), and the ld-pref= ixed library routines for managing these object files. These likewise persi= st in 5.0, SysV, and beyond as COFF-related tools. > >=20 > > So this puts the backstop of what would become COFF at at least '81. > >=20 > > - Matt G. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The surviving source code for SysV R2 supports this timeline: > - The header files (start from https://github.com/ryanwoodsmall/oldsysv/b= lob/master/sysvr2-vax/src/head/a.out.h) have dates of late =E2=80=9982, ear= ly =E2=80=9983. > - The source for exec() has a comment that refers to the 4xx magic format= s as =E2=80=9Cpre 5.0 stuff=E2=80=9D. > - The COFF format headers are #ifdef=E2=80=99ed for the 3B series. >=20 > Interestingly, the lowest magic numbers in the 5xx series are not for the= 3B, but for the =E2=80=9CBasic-16=E2=80=9D and for the =E2=80=9Cx86= =E2=80=9D. That led me to this paper: >=20 > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf >=20 > It seems that the roots of COFF go back to the initial portability effort= for V7 and in particular the 8086 port (which was done in 1978 according t= o the paper).