From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19761 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2022 07:44:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Feb 2022 07:44:58 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3AF349D6C7; Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:44:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3819B6B0; Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:44:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A76C19B6B0; Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:44:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from marmaro.de (marmaro.de [176.28.23.198]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D939B682 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:44:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by marmaro.de (masqmail 0.3.6-dev, from userid 1000) id 1nFWmo-1Gn-00 for ; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 08:44:10 +0100 To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org In-reply-to: <7C19F93B-4F21-4BB1-A064-0307D3568DB7@cfcl.com> References: <202202011537.211FbYSe017204@freefriends.org> <20220201155225.5A9541FB21@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <202202020747.2127lTTh005669@freefriends.org> <7C19F93B-4F21-4BB1-A064-0307D3568DB7@cfcl.com> Comments: In-reply-to Rich Morin message dated "Wed, 02 Feb 2022 21:47:52 -0800." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4884.1643874250.1@marmaro.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 08:44:10 +0100 From: markus schnalke Message-ID: <1nFWmo-1Gn-00@marmaro.de> Subject: Re: [TUHS] more about Brian... X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Hoi. [2022-02-02 21:47] Rich Morin > = > In any case, the K&P book I'd _really_ like to see brought up > to date is "The Elements of Programming Style". It could have > been subtitled "How to write small, simple programs that work." > It's still a very fine book, but I'm not sure that the current > crop of beginning programmers would be patient enough to deal > with the sadly dated example code. Don't you think that ``The Practice of Programming'' is the modern version of ``The Elements of Programming Style''? (Also a K&P book, btw. ;-) ) (Of course, the C++ and Java code in there would be seen as outdated as well, by now.) But even this one, today's programmers don't wanna read. They all go for ``Clean Code'', because they seem to like the style where someone with perfect selfconfidence answers all their questions and tells them what to do, as long it is not telling them to think for themselves and compromise between various conflicting goals that you all like go reach and thus that it depends on the specific situation. The problem IMO is not some dated example code but today's programmers having few interest in learning things outside their main modern focus and the style the're used to. They usually think that running fast is the best way moving forward, but they don't realize that slowing down, looking around, understanding the paths that lead us where we are and taking time to learn and think, isn't as slow as they might expect and eventually leads to better results. Being used to reading code and understanding concepts that are not fully in the style you're used to and transferring them to one's own world actually is a valuable ability, that people should train instead of avoid. Thus especially students should do read that good old ``Elements of Programming Style'' and discuss that, not a new book. Overall I don't really think that there's much hope in getting programmers to read such stuff, because they simply don't want to. Many don't care for good code, because they don't think in code lifespans of more than three to five years. They don't care to understand what they do and how the internals work, because that's hard work without instant results. And in today's world it's usually pays out to not do it. They don't care for simplicity but they want features and nice GUIs. Besides, they use technologies that favor huge programs and often are poorly suited for programming with small programs. Likewise, their whole thinking is focussed on large programs, because that's what they've been taught the whole time. What attracts them more and probably is more helpful is something like Go, which solves their problems. They don't use it because of conceptional beauty but because of its features. If you want to attract the masses, then you have to give them solutions to their problems and their wishes, not trying to educate them. ;-) To really step forward with the Unix philosophy Go needs to enter education and become today's Java as a main programming learning language. And for those, who are different, it doesn't matter so much how dated the examples are. It's the ideas and concepts which attract them. With Go there is a very modern technology, for beginners and experts alike, that carries Unix concepts and its way of thinking and decision making throughout. That probably is much more effective than any book. Besides, there are lots of Youtube videos around Go which transport the ideas and concepts, which as well are probably much more effective today than books. Anyone on this list, on the other hand, will probably be very happy in reading on of these old books (again) ... and have a great time! :-) meillo P.S. Thanks for sharing your bwk stories!