From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7063 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2023 07:43:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jun 2023 07:43:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A02342593; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:43:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from marmaro.de (marmaro.de [176.28.23.198]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957A042591 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:43:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by marmaro.de (masqmail 0.3.6-dev, from userid 1000) id 1qA46y-3OI-00; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:43:12 +0200 To: groff@gnu.org, TUHS main list In-reply-to: <20230616050705.3ualzkwc44a7sm4u@illithid> References: <20230616032055.ixdg6ubvfxgjhsmb@illithid> <37ea7f2b-e8f7-3cfe-a27d-ece47c5dc0f7@esi.com.au> <20230616050705.3ualzkwc44a7sm4u@illithid> User-Agent: meillo's mail handler (mmh) X-License: CC0 (http://marmaro.de/rights) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <13037.1686901392.1@marmaro.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:43:12 +0200 From: markus schnalke Message-ID: <1qA46y-3OI-00@marmaro.de> Message-ID-Hash: 6BPYBIAJE4464PTI7DHYP64VFCB3HB3U X-Message-ID-Hash: 6BPYBIAJE4464PTI7DHYP64VFCB3HB3U X-MailFrom: meillo@marmaro.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: end-S/long-S (was: Re: GNU eqn clarifications and reforms) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hoi. [2023-06-16 07:07] "G. Branden Robinson" > = > For in=C5=BFtance, the United States u=C5=BFed to employ a non-final lowe= rca=C5=BFe S > in the founding documents of its pre=C5=BFent government, where you can s= ee > exhibits of the "Congre=C5=BFs of the United States". In old German, up to WWII, namely in Fraktur (the printed letters) and S=C3=BCtterlin (the handwritten letters) both kinds of S are present. Today, the long-S has only survived in some old company and restaurant names, many of them changing by and by to the end-S, because younger Germans can't read long-S and don't understand it anymore. Newer names don't use it the long-S, even if they are written in Fraktur letters, which would demand for the long-S. For example the beer brand Warsteiner changed the long-S in 2013 to the end-S. https://1000logos.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Warsteiner-Logo-history.pn= g > (Although if anyone wants to tell me whether non-final s was applied to > the trailing ends of non-final morphemes _within_ words, I'm all ears.) I'm no language expert, so I don't really know what morphemes are. What I do know is that the round-S (i.e. end-S) is applied to the end of words, parts of compound words (typical for German), and in some situatuations even to parts of words. -- But only in Fraktur and S=C3=BCtterlin, not in modern German (latin alphabet), which does no longer have a long-S. Examples: End of word: Haus (engl: house) Middle of word: Ki=C5=BFte (engl: box) Compound word: Hausmaus (engl: house mouse) Hau=C5=BFmaus would be wrong. In such cases the end-S is in the middle of the word. Such compounds are typical for German. If you have an english word like ``downhill'', where two separate words joined into one, the end-S of the first part would still remain an end-S, although it moved into the middle of the word. (Sorry, I cannot find an english example where the first word part ends with s.) There's a famous example for the difference the distinguishing between s and =C5=BF can make: Wach=C5=BFtube, i.e. Wach-Stube (engl: guardhouse) Wachstube, i.e. Wachs-Tube (engl: wax tube) In modern German context is necessary to know which meaning of Wachstube is the right one, in old German it's clear from the writing. Besides compounds German is also infamous for it's prefixes. If you combine the prefix ``aus'' (engl: out) with other words, the end-S remains as well: ausgezeichnet (engl: excellent -- wordly: out-marked) Ausfahrt (engl: exit for vehicles -- wordly: out-drive) Using the long-S in these situation would be wrong. That means: Whenever one uses a word, that can stand alone (and is thus well-known for it's shape), as part of a larger word, the part stays the same, even within other words, keeping its end-S. Generally I'd say, but take this only as a rule of thumb, because I'm not enough expert in this: You use an end-S in all situation where you would want to avoid a ligature of the s with the next letter. Long-S can have ligatures with the following letter and there are common ones in German. (In Wach=C5=BFtube an st-ligature would be preferred.) End-S will never have ligatures with the following letter. This at least is the situation concerning old German, as understood by someone with curiousity for the topic but without real lingual knowledge. meillo