* RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
@ 2000-06-06 19:37 ` Wilko Bulte
0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: Wilko Bulte @ 2000-06-06 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 48864 bytes --]
On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?
I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
--
Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org
http://www.nlfug.nl
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16877
for <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:23 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from SHOPPA at timaxp.trailing-edge.com)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU;
Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?
Yeah, sure.
> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?
>Also:
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.
This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?
Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.
> - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.
That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:
;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):
; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count
MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division
.BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
;(10.*200)
60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient
INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count
BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done
MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0
MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number
ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it
BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.
Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.
The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA16974
for <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:42 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from SHOPPA at timaxp.trailing-edge.com)
Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU;
Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?
>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...
Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at
http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp
The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.
Tim.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17023
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:32 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from rivie at teraglobal.com)
Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP
(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:12:22 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rivie at ns1.teraglobal.com
Message-Id: <v0421010eb563058aacb7@[10.10.50.26]>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
References:
<Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);
Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:
DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:
- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:
|c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.
Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.
I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.
> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
> - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.
>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.
That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?
What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?
The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).
Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu (uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.2.64])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17066
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:51 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
From: rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/EC02Jan97)
id QAA04660; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <200006062020.QAA04660 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
To: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 TKL/POP PL2]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate
tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress,
and where exactly to find it.
It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until
I unrolled it there.
When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on
my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}...... Anyone else running RT toyz?
Thanks
Bob
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17081
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:23:41 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17077
for <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:23:38 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from rivie at teraglobal.com)
Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP
(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:21:28 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rivie at ns1.teraglobal.com
Message-Id: <v0421010fb5630d5a828e@[10.10.50.26]>
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
References: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim Shoppa said:
>;
>; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
>; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1
interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have
my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe
Tim on this one.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17116
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:32:29 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu (uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.2.64])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17112
for <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:32:24 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
From: rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/EC02Jan97)
id QAA05591; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <200006062030.QAA05591 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: RT confusedness....
To: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 TKL/POP PL2]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
>
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
......
> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
>
> ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
>
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.
Bob
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de (sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA17431
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:33 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Received: from aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de
( exim at aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.3] ) by sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de
id aa09092 ; 6 Jun 2000 23:57 MESZ
Received: from forelle32.wohnheim.uni-kl.de ([131.246.141.32] helo=unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
by aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2)
id 12zRLl-000Diq-00; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:57:29 +0200
Received: from unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26340;
Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:57 +0200 (CEST)
Message-Id: <200006062156.XAA26340 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
To: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory?
> OK, I'll add one.
A litle note like:
Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how
to decompress the files.
in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner.
Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress
issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job
also.
> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save
time...
> It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
> for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
> be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
> goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
Ahh. I did not know this.
ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff]
What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner
at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL.
OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII
and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box
will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU.
--
a guts N�chtle,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17429
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:15 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17425
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:13 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: (from wkt at localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id HAA32202;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200006062157.HAA32202 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 4:30:26 pm"
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu:
> > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> > from
> >
> > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> >
> > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related.
Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not.
However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information.
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17544
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:25:16 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17540
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:25:14 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: (from wkt at localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA32518;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200006062223.IAA32518 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0 at p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000 4:16:14 pm"
To: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by emanuel stiebler:
> > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were
> Unix-related.
> Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ?
> If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the
> changes :-(
Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-)
As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and
Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages.
A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/
We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
archive area, mail list as required.
The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information
and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated
group. So start sending me URLs :-)
The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A
new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week
sometime.
In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and
rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll
e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-)
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17685
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:51:22 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17681
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:51:20 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: (from wkt at localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA32738;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200006062249.IAA32738 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: VAX group in TUHS?
In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E at openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000 2:52:57 am"
To: chris at openecs.org (chris)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by chris:
> I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by
> NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX.
> So this might be a great chance.
>
> Regards - Chris
At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want
to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17708
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:59:36 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17704
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:59:30 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from sms at moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms at localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01871;
Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006062245.PAA01871 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill at shaffstall.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi --
Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
> patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'.
Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only
in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
know what the problem might be.
I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the
raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)):
dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
> no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
> from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
> due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
> itself as read-only, even for root.
Indeed it is related to disklabel support. In the face of a missing
or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this
case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a'
partition.
I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal
with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.
The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the
label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless
either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to
un-writeprotect it.
Try doing a
disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
to enable writing the label sector. If that works then the problem
lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen.
Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks
and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers. Floppies are
special in that 'raw' device usage is more common.
> Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
> all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
> above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
Quite so. To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk.
Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
messages with the 'sysctl' command:
sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in
use). Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver
has.
* Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets
* Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival
* Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams
* Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above
See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log
statements are covered by which bit.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17936
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:44 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ivan.Harhan.ORG (ivan.Harhan.ORG [207.55.197.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA17932
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:40 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Received: by ivan.Harhan.ORG (5.61.1.1/1.36)
id AA14868; Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT
From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006062339.AA14868 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: VAX group in TUHS?
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.
Yes.
> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?
Yes.
> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
No, I do not and will not separate these.
Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425
for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19421
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:19 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from bqt at Update.UU.SE)
Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24583;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:09 +0200
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:
[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
Well... No... But...
You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593
for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de (sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.50])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA21589
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:14 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Received: from aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de
( exim at aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.3] ) by sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de
id aa11429 ; 7 Jun 2000 17:37 MESZ
Received: from forelle32.wohnheim.uni-kl.de ([131.246.141.32] helo=unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
by aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2)
id 12zhtM-0009ai-00; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:37:16 +0200
Received: from unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01882;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:44 +0200 (CEST)
Message-Id: <200006071536.RAA01882 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <200006062020.QAA04660 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On 6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
good OS, free, modern, ...
--
tsch��,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA22104
for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:55:02 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA22097
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:54:56 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jasomill at shaffstall.com)
Received: from localhost (jasomill at localhost)
by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06434;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@shaffstall.com>
To: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071140500.6407-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if
nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command
seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to
me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen
that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term).
-jtm
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
>
> Well... No... But...
>
> You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
> don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA22172
for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:20:49 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA22168
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:20:43 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jasomill at shaffstall.com)
Received: from localhost (jasomill at localhost)
by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06448;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@shaffstall.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006062245.PAA01871 at moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071150180.6407-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it.
> Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
> got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
> 5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
(won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though
I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related
involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank
DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a
daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks
and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and
DECmate II)
> Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only
> in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
> know what the problem might be.
Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem,"
whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware
supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave,
though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike
_every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years)
> I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
> synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal
> with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
> is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
> to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.
I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I
don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my
PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address
Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also
to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or
segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on
this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite
my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm
excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five
of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and
coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for
the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again
It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :).
> Try doing a
>
> disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
>
> Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> messages with the 'sysctl' command:
>
> sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
>
I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.
-jtm
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA22518
for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:52:59 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (root at superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22514
for <PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:52:53 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from arno at usn.nl)
Received: (from arno at localhost)
by superluminal.usn.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA26525;
Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200
Message-Id: <200006071850.UAA26525 at superluminal.usn.nl>
Subject: Re: RT confusedness....
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu"
at "Jun 6, 2000 04:30:26 pm"
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST)
CC: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>, PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
From: griffioena@psi.com (Arno Griffioen)
Organization: PSINetworks Europe
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
> It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
> a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
> the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
> with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it.
The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow
misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics.
The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some
indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several
places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong".
But hey...
Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600
(which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn
quick!
Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this
collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-)
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
* RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
[not found] <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>
@ 2000-06-08 20:40 ` Jason T. Miller
0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: Jason T. Miller @ 2000-06-08 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
> the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
> preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
> remember.
Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once
made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy
drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine,
have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned
(20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is
actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read
(or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5"
'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those.
Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave.
> write: Read-only file system
> 2+0 records in
> 2+0 records out
That's what I get.
> That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
> only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
> decrement the output count on a write error.
I noticed that, too.
> After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> compares identical to the input file.
Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
sleep.
> The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
> 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
> see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
> One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
> "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
> which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
> latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
other goodies' I like.
As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly
what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
FreeBSD community At Large.
-jtm
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29337
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:29 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from enf at shell-2.enteract.com)
Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (enf at shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41])
by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA75007;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
(envelope-from enf at shell-2.enteract.com)
Received: (from enf at localhost)
by shell-2.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA99748;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
(envelope-from enf)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <200006082241.RAA99748 at shell-2.enteract.com>
From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
To: pdub at accesscom.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151 at accesscom.com>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf at localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201 at shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151 at accesscom.com>
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Paul West writes,
> BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
> for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
> (BBN).
Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had
forgotten about that one.
There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the
PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital
Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from
the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR
system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm
currently 2000 miles from my book collection.
eric
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29452
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:48 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: (from wkt at localhost)
by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA05733;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200006082258.IAA05733 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm"
To: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Jason T. Miller:
> The only thing I want is
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> FreeBSD community At Large.
Yep, it will go into Tools/
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29569
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:05 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from enf at shell-1.enteract.com)
Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf at shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40])
by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81631;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
(envelope-from enf at shell-1.enteract.com)
Received: (from enf at localhost)
by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA57997;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
(envelope-from enf)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <200006082321.SAA57997 at shell-1.enteract.com>
From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
To: lars at nocrew.org
Subject: Re: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf at junk.nocrew.org>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf at localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf at junk.nocrew.org>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Lars Brinkhoff writes,
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature.
And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from
ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format.
eric
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root at ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29902
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:11 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from pdub at accesscom.com)
Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19])
by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28066;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:25:59 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com
Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226 at accesscom.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700
From: Paul West <pdub@accesscom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lars brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org>
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf at localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf at junk.nocrew.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root at ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29916
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:30:50 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from pdub at accesscom.com)
Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19])
by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28267;
Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:28:39 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com
Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592 at accesscom.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700
From: Paul West <pdub@accesscom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lars brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org>
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL)
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf at localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf at junk.nocrew.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version.
Paul
---
lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA32358
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:00 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jasomill at indiana.edu)
Received: from as45.onet.net (as45.onet.net [207.40.154.45])
by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11456
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:05:03 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@indiana.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000 at lizard.indiana.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've
completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It
consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a
filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only
does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty
well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and
flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s.
So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's
about 3K, tarred and gzipped.
Jason T. Miller
Self-styled Jack of England
"..." -Anonymous
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589
for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA33585
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:18:57 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from jasomill at shaffstall.com)
Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2])
by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17942;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:52 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@shaffstall.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000 at guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
> > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> > FreeBSD community At Large.
>
> Yep, it will go into Tools/
Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well.
The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE
FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C
(hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an
RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)).
Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s;
Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to
implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful
mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk;
haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management
system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP
and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my
DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
-jtm
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ivan.Harhan.ORG (ivan.Harhan.ORG [207.55.197.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA34008
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:13 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Received: by ivan.Harhan.ORG (5.61.1.1/1.36)
id AA19804; Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT
From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006091454.AA19804 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Jason T. Miller <jasomill at shaffstall.com> wrote:
> (my loving father having discarded my
> DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and
sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist
property.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA34137
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:19 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from rivie at teraglobal.com)
Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP
(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:16:57 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rivie at ns1.teraglobal.com
Message-Id: <v0421010ab566b93d974a@[10.10.50.26]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000 at lizard.indiana.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000 at lizard.indiana.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Jason Miller wrote:
>(not only
>does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
>ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
>night when I think nobody's watching)
Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where
everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_
in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to
Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available
control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the
state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail.
I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the
device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and
OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the
part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source
code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I
got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel
printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil
gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026 at Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA37116
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:41 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from bqt at Update.UU.SE)
Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10654;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:06 +0200
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com>
cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968 at rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > > This is pure luxury.
> >
> > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
>
> My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
build.
> I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
> as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
> processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
> swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
True.
> Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
> I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
> pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
:-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA37256
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:09 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from sms at moe.2bsd.com)
Received: (from sms at localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18214;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill at shaffstall.com, sms at moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > write: Read-only file system
> > 2+0 records in
> > 2+0 records out
> That's what I get.
Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the
complete copy went thru
dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no
wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written.
> > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> > compares identical to the input file.
>
> Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
> sleep.
Sleep I can understand :)
I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area
will fix the problem.
Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was
a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels
the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble
all over the disk and the system would still know about the
partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed
like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;)
> I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
> written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
> software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go
crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me
the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct
documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments
in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse
engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc.
> Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
> 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
> other goodies' I like.
Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a
DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want
to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly
heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is
too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not
loose a single character.
> what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
> UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and
it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x
on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the
system responsiveness.
> I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
> that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and
fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it
was a much nicer system.
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!>
I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go
into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well,
only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing.
But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as
command history and command editing:
First there's the honest to Bourne shell:
text data bss dec hex
16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh
Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer
(to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much
easier than in sh):
55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120
overlays: 7360,6016
Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid
none the less.
And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of
tcsh for 2.11):
48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864
overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064
Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where
they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be
a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me.
Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory.
If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger)
you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being
in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at
the login prompt shortly there after ;)
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37368
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:48 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from tls at panix.com)
Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228])
by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP
id CACD615573; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id OAA06564; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135 at rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com
References: <20000608113634.A26968 at rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt at Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
>
> Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
> NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
> kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
> build.
Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that
while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due
to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot
of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly
with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler;
as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to
what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot
between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different
matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well.
Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from ivan.Harhan.ORG (ivan.Harhan.ORG [207.55.197.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA37441
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:09 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Received: by ivan.Harhan.ORG (5.61.1.1/1.36)
id AA20337; Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT
From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006091918.AA20337 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
> the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
> forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
We do use inline of course. I love it.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569
for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root at nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38])
by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37565
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:19 +1000 (EST)
(envelope-from obrien at NUXI.com)
Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@[209.152.133.57])
by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02370;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
(envelope-from obrien at dragon.nuxi.com)
Received: (from obrien at localhost)
by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA49090;
Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
(envelope-from obrien)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: jasomill at shaffstall.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675 at dragon.nuxi.com>
Reply-To: obrien at NUXI.com
References: <200006091842.LAA18214 at moe.2bsd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i
In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214 at moe.2bsd.com>; from sms at moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT
Organization: The NUXI BSD group
X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A
X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
read this list for.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-06-08 20:40 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 2+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
[not found] <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
2000-06-06 19:37 ` RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Wilko Bulte
[not found] <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>
2000-06-08 20:40 ` Jason T. Miller
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).