* RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
@ 2000-06-06 19:37 ` Wilko Bulte
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From: Wilko Bulte @ 2000-06-06 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?
I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
--
Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org
http://www.nlfug.nl
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?
Yeah, sure.
> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?
>Also:
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.
This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?
Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.
> - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.
That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:
;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):
; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count
MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division
.BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
;(10.*200)
60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient
INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count
BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done
MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0
MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number
ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it
BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.
Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.
The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?
>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...
Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at
http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp
The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.
Tim.
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);
Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:
DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:
- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:
|c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.
Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.
I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.
> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
> - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.
>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.
That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?
What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?
The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).
Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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Subject: Re: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
To: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM
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> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate
tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress,
and where exactly to find it.
It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until
I unrolled it there.
When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on
my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}...... Anyone else running RT toyz?
Thanks
Bob
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Tim Shoppa said:
>;
>; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
>; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1
interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have
my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe
Tim on this one.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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Subject: Re: RT confusedness....
To: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60 at trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM
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> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
>
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
......
> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
>
> ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
>
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.
Bob
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Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
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On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory?
> OK, I'll add one.
A litle note like:
Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how
to decompress the files.
in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner.
Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress
issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job
also.
> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save
time...
> It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
> for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
> be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
> goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
Ahh. I did not know this.
ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff]
What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner
at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL.
OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII
and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box
will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU.
--
a guts N�chtle,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591 at uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 4:30:26 pm"
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu:
> > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> > from
> >
> > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> >
> > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related.
Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not.
However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information.
Ciao,
Warren
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Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0 at p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000 4:16:14 pm"
To: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST)
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In article by emanuel stiebler:
> > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were
> Unix-related.
> Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ?
> If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the
> changes :-(
Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-)
As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and
Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages.
A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/
We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
archive area, mail list as required.
The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information
and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated
group. So start sending me URLs :-)
The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A
new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week
sometime.
In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and
rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll
e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-)
Cheers,
Warren
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Subject: Re: VAX group in TUHS?
In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E at openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000 2:52:57 am"
To: chris at openecs.org (chris)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG
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In article by chris:
> I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by
> NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX.
> So this might be a great chance.
>
> Regards - Chris
At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want
to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
Cheers,
Warren
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006062245.PAA01871 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill at shaffstall.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Hi --
Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
> patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'.
Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only
in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
know what the problem might be.
I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the
raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)):
dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
> no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
> from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
> due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
> itself as read-only, even for root.
Indeed it is related to disklabel support. In the face of a missing
or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this
case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a'
partition.
I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal
with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.
The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the
label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless
either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to
un-writeprotect it.
Try doing a
disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
to enable writing the label sector. If that works then the problem
lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen.
Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks
and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers. Floppies are
special in that 'raw' device usage is more common.
> Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
> all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
> above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
Quite so. To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk.
Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
messages with the 'sysctl' command:
sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in
use). Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver
has.
* Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets
* Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival
* Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams
* Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above
See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log
statements are covered by which bit.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.
Yes.
> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?
Yes.
> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
No, I do not and will not separate these.
Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:
[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
Well... No... But...
You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Subject: Re: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
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On 6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
good OS, free, modern, ...
--
tsch��,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@shaffstall.com>
To: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if
nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command
seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to
me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen
that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term).
-jtm
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
>
> Well... No... But...
>
> You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
> don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result.
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill@shaffstall.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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> Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it.
> Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
> got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
> 5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
(won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though
I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related
involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank
DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a
daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks
and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and
DECmate II)
> Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only
> in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
> know what the problem might be.
Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem,"
whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware
supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave,
though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike
_every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years)
> I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
> synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal
> with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
> is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
> to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.
I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I
don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my
PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address
Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also
to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or
segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on
this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite
my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm
excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five
of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and
coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for
the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again
It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :).
> Try doing a
>
> disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
>
> Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> messages with the 'sysctl' command:
>
> sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
>
I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.
-jtm
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Subject: Re: RT confusedness....
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST)
CC: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>, PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
From: griffioena@psi.com (Arno Griffioen)
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> Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
> It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
> a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
> the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
> with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it.
The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow
misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics.
The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some
indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several
places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong".
But hey...
Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600
(which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn
quick!
Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this
collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-)
Bye, Arno.
--
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