[pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

[pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

[rdkeys]

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> Hi Bob -

Hello.....

> > From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> 
> 	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
> 	be too hard to find.

Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled
the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up.  VAXen are the usual
fare, since PDP's were not that common around here.  The RTP NC area did
not really get big into computering until the VAX era.

> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> 	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.
> 
> > 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).
> 
> 	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
> 	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
> 	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
> 	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
> 	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
> 	controllers will run around $500-900.

I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller.  Is that the
one you are talking about?  If so, that could be a lucky find.

Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from
a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a
reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root
or a miniroot or such?  It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing
images, it might work, I would think.

One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF
I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next
few weeks.  They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate
and are single ended scsi Ciphers.  Could they be used on a PDP-11, too?

> 	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
> 	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
> 	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
> 	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
> 	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
> 	on an 11 ;)

I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in
surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz.  All the PeeCee types
avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull.
MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates.  They are now hitting
surplus quite frequently.

> 	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:
> 
> 		http://www.ficompinc.com
> 
> > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> > 
> > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?
> 
> 	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
> 	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
> 	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came
out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card.  Minus two points for
me.  Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}...

> > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?
> 
> 	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
> 	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is
good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking
I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it.

> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at moe.2bsd.com

Thanks for the tidbits folks!

Bob

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200
From: Wilko Bulte <wkb@freebie.demon.nl>
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
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On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> > 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> > 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> > 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> > 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> > 
> > 	Steven Schultz
> > 	sms at to.gd-es.com
> 
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
> and general dumpster diving knowledge....
> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI.
Maybe 1325??).

RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive.
 
I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not
consider anything smaller than a 53.

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	 
wilko at freebsd.org 			Arnhem, the Netherlands

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Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
To: allisonp at world.std.com
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> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
> CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
> Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
> many similar out there as well.

Oh, stupid me... I cleaned up the junk pile a couple of months back
and not thinking threw out about 20 of these mfm critters, not thinking
they were much usable, any more.  I did save a couple of the 150mb
mfm things from the Sun3 crate, though.  They were Micropolis, if
memory is correct.  All the 20/30/40/60/80mb things I chucked.
Oh well.

On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
and Model 80 machines?  They were 70/115/300mb drives, and are
quite common.  If they were usable, I have bunches of those that
have not yet been thrown out.  They are also quite numerous in
local surplus.

Bob

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Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
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On 12 Oct, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
> and Model 80 machines?  
I am using Micropolis 1654-7 (150MB), 1664-7 (320MB) and Maxtor XT4380
(350MB) ESDI drives from PCs and Apollo Domain DN3X00 Machines with a
Dilog DQ686 QBus MSCP controller. Last week I salvaged a XT4780 (~700MB)
but did not have the time to test it. I had no problems using this
disks. After reformating them with the controller on board diag they
worked well in my MicroVAX II. I expect no problems with it when I
convert the VAX to a PDP11/23. 
The problem with some IBM PS/2 ESDI drives is the proprietary
connector, that combinates signal and power lines in one connector.
I don't know if they are usable with a normal ESDI controller. On the
other hand: In my PS/2 80 is the same Maxtor XT4380 like the one from
Apollo I am using with the Dilog. 
-- 



tsch��,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

[pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

[rdkeys]

> 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> 
> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at to.gd-es.com

Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
(like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
and general dumpster diving knowledge....

1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
    work on a PDP-11?

2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere.  Any urls
or pointers thereto would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bob Keys
rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu

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Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
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Bob Keys wrote:

>1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>    work on a PDP-11?

Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-).
See

 http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/third-party-disks.txt

for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots
of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC
RQDXn controllers.

Tim.

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To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
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> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
many similar out there as well.
 
> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

Yes if you have a SCSI card that is MSCP compatable.  THese are scarce
 as many are still in service or quickly picked up.

> I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
> as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
> find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
> to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
> it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

There is a good chance they are useable depending on the controller 
in your DEC hardware.

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Someone else will confirm but 2.11 handles MSCP so that means RQDX
controllers for MFM or many of the SCSI controlers that speak MSCP.

> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

See above list.


> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

Yes, with the right controller, some caveats.

Hopefully you will get more detailes from others.

Allison

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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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Hi Bob -

> From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but

	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
	be too hard to find.

> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.

> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
	controllers will run around $500-900.

	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
	on an 11 ;)

	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:

		http://www.ficompinc.com

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> 
> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com