[pups] Figured some things out.

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Kelli Halliburton]

I feel just a little bit stupid for not figuring them out sooner, but smart in 
being able to figure them out on my own.

Some of you may remember a post I wrote some time ago, dealing with E11 
(Ersatz-11) and the RL02 v7 image. I mentioned not being able to get out of 
single-user mode, and being unable to view man pages.

Well, as it turns out, I stumbled across the method of getting to multi-user 
mode. ^D, imagine that. Dropping out of single-user mode starts multi-user 
mode. That's not something I would have been able to use logic to figure out.

And, well, I happened to notice that there was no temp directory, so no wonder 
man couldn't create its temp file. A quick little 'mkdir tmp' and that 
problem was fixed. Now, that was something I was able to figure out 
logically.

Of course, now my problem is that the console is presumed to be a TTY and not 
a CRT terminal. And so, man pages just scroll right up and off the screen. Oh 
well. I'm sure I'll figure out something. Eventually.

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Warren Toomey]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 02:27:52PM -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote:
> Well, as it turns out, I stumbled across the method of getting to multi-user 
> mode. ^D, imagine that. Dropping out of single-user mode starts multi-user 
> mode. That's not something I would have been able to use logic to figure out.

It's documented in the original V7 installation instructions. Effectively,
you start in single-user mode with a shell attached to the keyboard.
You have to disconnect the keyboard with ctrl-D, which then kills the shell
and starts running /etc/rc.
> 
> Of course, now my problem is that the console is presumed to be a TTY and not 
> a CRT terminal. And so, man pages just scroll right up and off the screen. Oh 
> well. I'm sure I'll figure out something. Eventually.

In V7, everything was a dumb terminal: termcap and curses did not exist yet.
And you were expected to have a paper-based terminal too :)

Cheers,
	Warren

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Kelli Halliburton]

On Wednesday 08 March 2006 04:15 pm, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 02:27:52PM -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote:
> > Well, as it turns out, I stumbled across the method of getting to
> > multi-user mode. ^D, imagine that. Dropping out of single-user mode
> > starts multi-user mode. That's not something I would have been able to
> > use logic to figure out.
>
> It's documented in the original V7 installation instructions. Effectively,
> you start in single-user mode with a shell attached to the keyboard.
> You have to disconnect the keyboard with ctrl-D, which then kills the shell
> and starts running /etc/rc.

The site where I got the v7 image was a bit short on instructions. It just had 
the RL image. I was stuck trying to read man pages from within the booted 
system. However, your message has prompted me to try to dig up the manual. I 
have found a set of 3 PDF files, and I have been poking around in them.

> > Of course, now my problem is that the console is presumed to be a TTY and
> > not a CRT terminal. And so, man pages just scroll right up and off the
> > screen. Oh well. I'm sure I'll figure out something. Eventually.
>
> In V7, everything was a dumb terminal: termcap and curses did not exist
> yet. And you were expected to have a paper-based terminal too :)

I was not expecting termcap or curses; I was... *hoping* (still not expecting) 
that perhaps v7 was new enough that the 'simple' type of CRT terminals, the 
ones that were basically just glass TTYs, were in common use. That it would 
be possible to use stty to set the number of rows to n, and that just maybe 
there would be a 'more' command that would only printout the next n lines. 
You know, simple stuff. Nothing about cursor addressable displays, no special 
codes for clearing the screen, or text attributes, just screen paging. At any 
rate, I may sit down at some point and write a 'more' utility of my own. Not 
that I need it for man pages now that I have the offline version of the 
manual, but there are still things like long directory listings that it would 
be useful for.

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Guy Sotomayor]

On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 16:59 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote:

> 
> The site where I got the v7 image was a bit short on instructions. It just had 
> the RL image. I was stuck trying to read man pages from within the booted 
> system. However, your message has prompted me to try to dig up the manual. I 
> have found a set of 3 PDF files, and I have been poking around in them.

Those will get you a long way.

> 
> > > Of course, now my problem is that the console is presumed to be a TTY and
> > > not a CRT terminal. And so, man pages just scroll right up and off the
> > > screen. Oh well. I'm sure I'll figure out something. Eventually.
> >
> > In V7, everything was a dumb terminal: termcap and curses did not exist
> > yet. And you were expected to have a paper-based terminal too :)
> 
> I was not expecting termcap or curses; I was... *hoping* (still not expecting) 
> that perhaps v7 was new enough that the 'simple' type of CRT terminals, the 
> ones that were basically just glass TTYs, were in common use. That it would 
> be possible to use stty to set the number of rows to n, and that just maybe 
> there would be a 'more' command that would only printout the next n lines. 
> You know, simple stuff. Nothing about cursor addressable displays, no special 
> codes for clearing the screen, or text attributes, just screen paging. At any 
> rate, I may sit down at some point and write a 'more' utility of my own. Not 
> that I need it for man pages now that I have the offline version of the 
> manual, but there are still things like long directory listings that it would 
> be useful for.

Of course, you could get the BSD package (1 or 2 ... not 2.x) and
install it.  That's how BSD started BTW, things like vi, termcap, more,
etc. were add-ons to v7.

-- 

TTFN - Guy

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Brantley Coile]

>> > > Of course, now my problem is that the console is presumed to be a TTY and
>> > > not a CRT terminal. And so, man pages just scroll right up and off the
>> > > screen. Oh well. I'm sure I'll figure out something. Eventually.

Kernighan and Pike's book `The Unix Programming Environment' has a
program called `p' that was used in the labs when screens became
faster.

>> > In V7, everything was a dumb terminal: termcap and curses did not exist
>> > yet. And you were expected to have a paper-based terminal too :)

By 1978 glass ttys were very much in use.  The advent of the
microprocessor made smart terminals affordable.

I would suggest that you play with V7 without the Berkeley stuff.  It
will add to your experience.  You'll be surprised by the productivity
and usefulness of a system that doesn't move the cursor.  From 1982
until 1992 I used ed(1) almost exclusively.  In the Seventh Edition
you can see the true beauty of the tools approach without them being
obscured by foreign influences.  

The whole idea of running these systems, seems to me, id getting the
real experience of living with them.  The V7 experience is a wonderful
one.  As you explore the system, you'll see ways to do things
elegantly where other systems have added lots of ornimates that
obscure.  To get a real feel, run it as most did.

If you want to expericne BSD, then load BSD.

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Hellwig.Geisse]

On 08-Mar-2006 Kelli Halliburton wrote:
> I was not expecting termcap or curses; I was... *hoping* (still not
> expecting) 
> that perhaps v7 was new enough that the 'simple' type of CRT terminals, the 
> ones that were basically just glass TTYs, were in common use. That it would 
> be possible to use stty to set the number of rows to n, and that just maybe 
> there would be a 'more' command that would only printout the next n lines. 
> You know, simple stuff. Nothing about cursor addressable displays, no special
> codes for clearing the screen, or text attributes, just screen paging. At any
> rate, I may sit down at some point and write a 'more' utility of my own. Not 
> that I need it for man pages now that I have the offline version of the 
> manual, but there are still things like long directory listings that it would
> be useful for.

Depending on the speed of your simulator, you
could perhaps try to stop the output temporarily
with ^S (and restart it with ^Q). Together with
the ability to scroll backwards within the output
window you should be able to read what is coming
out of your simulated system... ;-)

Good luck,
Hellwig

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Kelli Halliburton]

On Wednesday 08 March 2006 05:22 pm, Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de wrote:
> Depending on the speed of your simulator, you
> could perhaps try to stop the output temporarily
> with ^S (and restart it with ^Q). Together with
> the ability to scroll backwards within the output
> window you should be able to read what is coming
> out of your simulated system... ;-)

E11 starts from a DOS box, which would be fine, since you can set the length 
of the screen buffer in a DOS box, but it takes over the screen. So the 
buffer disappears and the screen becomes only 25 lines long. So the scrolling 
backwards trick doesn't work.

As far as speed goes... under Windows 2000, E11's speed is highly variable. I 
think, from reading the E11 manual, that it has something to do with disk 
caching. I imagine that it's probably much more consistent under DOS, or the 
DOS-based versions of Windows.

[pups] Figured some things out.

[Efton Collins]

I have a 7th Edition installation that includes the Berkeley package.  The
USB package includes over 60 commands, 'vi' and 'more' are among them.
There's also a new 'man'  that knows about more, so viewing man pages is
done a page at a time.  Other than installing the Berkeley bits, adding the
RL02 driver to the kernel and rebuilding df,  it should be a fairly close
match to the original distribution tape.

I usually use Bob Supnik's PDP11 emulator. The vanilla emulator works very
well but it's a bit of a CPU hog. On Linux I've been able to tone that down
by adding a nanosleep in the main processing loop.

The distribution is on two 10 megabyte RL02 images. If you would like a copy
of them, let me know and I'll make arrangements to make them available.

Efton


On 3/8/06, Kelli Halliburton <kelli217 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 08 March 2006 05:22 pm, Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.dewrote:
> > Depending on the speed of your simulator, you
> > could perhaps try to stop the output temporarily
> > with ^S (and restart it with ^Q). Together with
> > the ability to scroll backwards within the output
> > window you should be able to read what is coming
> > out of your simulated system... ;-)
>
> E11 starts from a DOS box, which would be fine, since you can set the
> length
> of the screen buffer in a DOS box, but it takes over the screen. So the
> buffer disappears and the screen becomes only 25 lines long. So the
> scrolling
> backwards trick doesn't work.
>
> As far as speed goes... under Windows 2000, E11's speed is highly
> variable. I
> think, from reading the E11 manual, that it has something to do with disk
> caching. I imagine that it's probably much more consistent under DOS, or
> the
> DOS-based versions of Windows.
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>
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[pups] Figured some things out.

[Hellwig.Geisse]

Hi Efton,

On 09-Mar-2006 Efton Collins wrote:
> I have a 7th Edition installation that includes the Berkeley package.
> [..]
> The distribution is on two 10 megabyte RL02 images. If you would like a copy
> of them, let me know and I'll make arrangements to make them available.

I'm definitely interested. It would be very
kind of you if you could make them available.

Hellwig

[pups] Figured some things out.

[John Holden]

> 
> I was not expecting termcap or curses; I was.. *hoping* (still not expecting) 
> that perhaps v7 was new enough that the 'simple' type of CRT terminals, the 
> ones that were basically just glass TTYs, were in common use. That it would 
> be possible to use stty to set the number of rows to n, and that just maybe 
> there would be a 'more' command that would only printout the next n lines. 
> You know, simple stuff. Nothing about cursor addressable displays, no special 
> codes for clearing the screen, or text attributes, just screen paging. At any 
> rate, I may sit down at some point and write a 'more' utility of my own. Not 
> that I need it for man pages now that I have the offline version of the 
> manual, but there are still things like long directory listings that it would 
> be useful for.

Actually, termcap and vi was ported back to V7 very early in the piece,
though you needed an ID space processor (aka PDP11/45/50/55/70) to run vi.
There were several paging programs about, some using termcap. From memory
there was dis, pg and more. The man command didn't do any pagination

Cheers
John