* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9
@ 2006-05-19 14:33 patv
2006-05-19 14:42 ` Larry McVoy
2006-05-19 14:44 ` John Cowan
0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: patv @ 2006-05-19 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
>
> I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it
> up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good.
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com
I hate when these discussions become religious. What I initially said was
I'd love to see what would happen if a TOG branded UNIX were open source.
As for which one, I don't really care. It doesn't matter which. The
hypothetical scenario is if suddenly there was a "Open Source UNIX" out
there, what would happen to all the FUD and other marketing spin?
This hypothetical OS could easily be a Linux based GNU distribution,
almost any BSD, or some other OS out there. I just mentioned OSF/1 because
it already has been branded UNIX.
Pat
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* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 2006-05-19 14:33 [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 patv @ 2006-05-19 14:42 ` Larry McVoy 2006-05-19 14:44 ` John Cowan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2006-05-19 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 09:33:55AM -0500, patv at monmouth.com wrote: > > I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it > > up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good. > > -- > > --- > > Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com > > I hate when these discussions become religious. What I initially said was > I'd love to see what would happen if a TOG branded UNIX were open source. Isn't Solaris what you want then? -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 2006-05-19 14:33 [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 patv 2006-05-19 14:42 ` Larry McVoy @ 2006-05-19 14:44 ` John Cowan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: John Cowan @ 2006-05-19 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) patv at monmouth.com scripsit: > I hate when these discussions become religious. What I initially said was > I'd love to see what would happen if a TOG branded UNIX were open source. Ah, I missed that point (and I think some others did too). The text below strikes me as relevant; it was written by me, edited by Eric Raymond with my consent, and published in his name in TAOUP: Master Foo Discourses on the Unix-Nature A student said to Master Foo: ``We are told that the firm called SCO holds true dominion over Unix.'' Master Foo nodded. The student continued, Yet we are also told that the firm called OpenGroup also holds true dominion over Unix.'' Master Foo nodded. ``How can this be?'' asked the student. Master Foo replied: ``SCO indeed has dominion over the code of Unix, but the code of Unix is not Unix. OpenGroup indeed has dominion over the name of Unix, but the name of Unix is not Unix.'' ``What, then, is the Unix-nature?'' asked the student. Master Foo replied: ``Not code. Not name. Not mind. Not things. Always changing, yet never changing. ``The Unix-nature is simple and empty. Because it is simple and empty, it is more powerful than a typhoon. ``Moving in accordance with the law of nature, it unfolds inexorably in the minds of programmers, assimilating designs to its own nature. All software that would compete with it must become like to it; empty, empty, profoundly empty, perfectly void, hail!'' Upon hearing this, the student was enlightened. -- John Cowan cowan at ccil.org ccil.org/~cowan Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos --Lithuanian proverb Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem --Latin version thereof Deity donated dentition; deity'll donate doughnuts --English version by Muke Tever God gave gums; God'll give granary --Version by Mat McVeagh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9
@ 2006-05-24 21:35 Berny 'Scouser' Goodheart
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Berny 'Scouser' Goodheart @ 2006-05-24 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Mon, 22 May 2006, 19:38:21 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
>But the point being made was that I've been around the block, I've worked
on and/or looked hard at many different Unix variants and I'm not at all sad
to see them go.
Why are you here then?
It's a fact that many of the big-gun Unix vendors have moved on but Unix
development continues to persist, so don't put it down yet. Unix is still
very much alive and kicking. Unix has been around forever and the Unicies
that remain still offer enough diversions to mix up the market and make
things interesting for us all. If Linux was the only Unix like system out
there then what would happen if Linux went belly-up. It could easily
happen if the big Linux vendors Redhat, Suse etc went to the dogs. Having
other Unix systems out their competing with each other as well as Linux is
healthy.
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* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 [not found] <mailman.3.1148004001.45222.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> @ 2006-05-19 2:35 ` Larry McVoy 2006-05-19 4:28 ` Lyrical Nanoha 2006-05-23 2:26 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2006-05-19 2:35 UTC (permalink / raw) > Michael Sokolov, it was, that writted: > [stuff] > > ==== > > You silly, twisted boy, you. Indeed. Michael does not seem to have been taking his meds. Nice guy but a bit out there. Tim wrote: > A good example would probably be SunOS 4 - we already know that Sun are > quite interested in open sourcing stuff given OpenSolaris, but SunOS 4 > hasn't been, presumably because it is full of stuff-they-don't-own and has > no commercial value at all. I'm the guy who took SunOS 4.1.3 and removed all the non-free stuff from it (which was 90% STREAMS) and demo-ed it to McNealy in effort to set it free. A lot went into this: http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html There isn't much chance they'll release it and at this point it is so far behind I'm not sure I see the point. Even though that is the one kernel that I really loved. > From: Peter Jeremy <peterjeremy at optushome.com.au> > SMP support started earlier than 4.1.4. The sun4m machines (SS470, > SS670) were the first SMP machines and ISTR they were supported in Um, search google groups for lm at slovax - that was a 470. It was most definitely not an SMP box though it was my favorite Sun machine. Great machine, my home machine is still named slovax in honor of that box (which was named slovax in honor of a Wisconsin 11/750 that held the 4.x BSD source which taught me more than anything else). And for those who care, slovax/470 now belongs to Theo Deraadt, I'm ashamed to say that I sold it to him so I could buy some parts for my VW van at the time. At the time I didn't have any money, if I could do it over again I would have given it to him. The 670 was an SMP, that's Chuck Narad's box. Pretty nice except that bcopy performance was really bad. ----- But the bigger point I wanted to make was to react to all the stuff about OSF/1 or Ultrix or Tru64 or AIX or whatever. Most of you probably have no idea who I am or what we do. I run a company that makes a software product which runs on all those old Unix platforms. We have all the boxen with all the various Unix versions. Other than SunOS 4.x, if they all fell off the face of the earth tomorrow I couldn't be happier. They suck. And even SunOS sucks in some ways, it's way behind Linux. I'm a file system guy, I'm the last guy who did anything significant to UFS (ask Kirk), and I have to admit that the Linux guys are in some ways running circles around the old school Unix guys. The one exception (that I know of) is ZFS. That's pretty cool, the Linux guys are unlikely to do anything that good, it's too complex. But my point is that the love for the old unix versions is mostly misplaced. V7, you bet. That teaches you "small" (as does Comer's Xinu work). But all of the vendor Unices, even my beloved SunOS, pale in comparison to Linux. Sad but true, I've spent a lot of time in the code. And in some ways it isn't sad at all, it's cool. Linux is free. The only sad part that I still see is maybe personal. I loved SunOS because working in it, as a young kid, I didn't know shit. But there I was, hacking away. When I started, wandering through the code made me feel like I was in a fog, I couldn't see the next step. But as time went on the fog cleared and I saw this very clear and clean architecture. It became something that you could really see and see why it was that way and see how you could extend it and see how you shouldn't extend it. The generic kernel source (take away drivers and file system implementations, but keep the VFS layer) is very small. I've lived for many years in SunOS, I've lived in IRIX, I've lived in SCO (which is more true to V7 than anything else), I've lived in Linux, I've read the HP-UX code, I haven't read Ultrix, OSF/1 or AIX, but the ones I know, they are all pretty simple. The only one that ever cleared the fog for me was SunOS, all the other ones looked like a mess which is why I don't share the sentiment that we should be crying over the loss of all the vendor Unices. I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 2006-05-19 2:35 ` Larry McVoy @ 2006-05-19 4:28 ` Lyrical Nanoha 2006-05-23 2:26 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Lyrical Nanoha @ 2006-05-19 4:28 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 18 May 2006, Larry McVoy wrote: > Tim wrote: >> A good example would probably be SunOS 4 - we already know that Sun are >> quite interested in open sourcing stuff given OpenSolaris, but SunOS 4 >> hasn't been, presumably because it is full of stuff-they-don't-own and has >> no commercial value at all. > > I'm the guy who took SunOS 4.1.3 and removed all the non-free stuff from it > (which was 90% STREAMS) and demo-ed it to McNealy in effort to set it free. > A lot went into this: http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html The idea is not unlike what I am hoping to be able to do, that is, make a system as close to "real" Unix as possible, and fully open-source / copyleft, where Linux really isn't "it", BSD is closer to this goal, and indeed NetBSD + Heirloom Toolchest is where I would start. I'd like to see a system, and hell, if I could I'd implement it myself. One that felt so like commercial Unix that you couldn't tell the difference unless you ran uname. And had needed functionality without being uber-bloated like GNU. -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 2006-05-19 2:35 ` Larry McVoy 2006-05-19 4:28 ` Lyrical Nanoha @ 2006-05-23 2:26 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2006-05-23 2:38 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2006-05-23 2:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thursday, 18 May 2006 at 19:35:29 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > > Most of you probably have no idea who I am or what we do. But of course! Your reputation precedes you. > I'm a file system guy, I'm the last guy who did anything significant > to UFS (ask Kirk), Hmm. You know about the UFS2 work that Kirk did in FreeBSD over the last few years, right? Here's part of the last commit he did. mckusick 2005-05-18 22:18:21 UTC FreeBSD src repository Modified files: sys/ufs/ufs ufs_vnops.c Log: Allow removal of empty directories with high link counts. ... If you've been doing something in this time frame, I'd be very interested in hearing about it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20060523/0aa283fd/attachment.sig> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 2006-05-23 2:26 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2006-05-23 2:38 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2006-05-23 2:38 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 11:56:54AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Hmm. You know about the UFS2 work that Kirk did in FreeBSD over the > last few years, right? Here's part of the last commit he did. You're right but I already sent out mail correcting that statement. But the point I was really trying to make had little to do with UFS, I was simply trying to establish my credentials as a kernel hack (once upon a time). Because without being one, making comments on all the various Unices out there is pretty lame. I'm perfectly happy to say Kirk is still kicking butt on UFS, in fact, I'm ecstatic about that, I'm the guy who beat him up when he didn't defend UFS at the LFS presentation (UFS is a much much nicer file system and it's all about the allocation policy. LFS doesn't really have one. Works great for writing, sucks for reading. Which do you do more?). So go Kirk! But the point being made was that I've been around the block, I've worked on and/or looked hard at many different Unix variants and I'm not at all sad to see them go. Once upon a time it would have been great if SunOS 4.x had been open source, it was a much (and I mean MUCH) nicer place to start than *BSD or Linux. Much nicer. But time has marched on and these days I think that SunOS wouldn't be as viable. And it's the only one that I think would have had a chance and I work daily on all of them, we support our product on AIX IRIX Tru/64 HP-UX Solaris SCO MacOS X as well as all the free Unix variants. Our build cluster is 35 platforms and we get to deal with all the issues associated with all of them. If I could reduce that down to Linux, Windows, MacOS and Solaris I'd be happier. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-05-24 21:35 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-05-19 14:33 [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9 patv 2006-05-19 14:42 ` Larry McVoy 2006-05-19 14:44 ` John Cowan -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2006-05-24 21:35 Berny 'Scouser' Goodheart [not found] <mailman.3.1148004001.45222.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> 2006-05-19 2:35 ` Larry McVoy 2006-05-19 4:28 ` Lyrical Nanoha 2006-05-23 2:26 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2006-05-23 2:38 ` Larry McVoy
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