[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Andrew Warkentin]

With the successful restoration of Unix V1, I was thinking of other
operating systems that could be restored in a similar way. The most
historically significant would probably be CTSS. The SIMH IBM 7094
simulator has everything necessary to run CTSS implemented already,
although the CTSS-specific stuff is untested (since as far as I know,
nobody has booted CTSS in it yet) and may need some patching.

There are several tapes of listings (for almost all of the system), and
a few tapes of binaries (one with supervisor binaries, and one with
"standalone" utilities, but nothing with user-mode programs) available.
The listings need to be converted back into source that can be assembled
or compiled. Part of this can be done automatically (I have written some
dumb scripts to do this), but there will likely be quite a bit of manual
editing involved. There is nothing to be OCRed, since everything is on 
magtapes.

Most of the source is either assembly or MAD (an Algol-58 dialect), with
a few files in AED (another Algol dialect, for which no compiler appears
to have survived). Restoring the assembler stuff should be easy (there
exists a cross-assembler which would work), but restoring the MAD stuff
will be a little bit harder. There is no cross-compiler for it (there is
a compiler that runs under IBSYS, but it is probably just for an IBSYS
target, and I'm not sure if anyone has even figured out how to run it).
The AED stuff will have to be rewritten in MAD (which shouldn't be
especially hard, since AED and MAD are somewhat similar). Only a few
non-essential programs are written in AED.

I think that all (or at least most of) the stuff required for booting is
written in assembler, so the best way to get it working would be get a
minimal system booting (I suspect all that is necessary is the
supervisor, so the binaries on the tape might be of use), and run the
CTSS MAD compiler under it to compile all the MAD stuff (which includes
many of the "core" commands).

I'm not sure what the best way to get stuff into a filesystem is. The
standalone utilities run under FMS, and there is no bootable FMS tape.
There is a version of FMS that runs under IBSYS, but for some reason, it
  returns an error when attempting to load the utilities off the tape.
It  is probably possible to patch it to fix that bug, though. It would
also work to write utilities that run on the host system, much like what
was done for Unix V1 (although I think that fixing the bug in FMS would
probably be easier).

Maybe I should start a Sourceforge project.


Another, much simpler, system which might be possible to restore is
MUMPS-15, for which a PDF of a paper listing is available on bitsavers.
Restoring it would probably just be a matter of OCRing, correcting, and
assembling it (and maybe writing a bootstrap).

[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Al Kossow]

Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> With the successful restoration of Unix V1, I was thinking of other
> operating systems that could be restored in a similar way.

There is no shortage of systems that could be worked on.
The Berkeley GENIE SDS 940 system, for example. Machine readable
sources exist, but no drum image, so it would have to be reassembled
from the existing binaries, and cross-assembled to get the rest.

I'm hoping to recover a bunch of system tapes for the B5700 soon.

Someone else I know has been trying to get the Stretch system software
running again from listings.

[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Sergio Pedraja]

Stretch ? Where ? :-)

But Seriously, this would be particularly a goal similar to CTSS. About the
SDS... Where can be obtained the sources ? Is it the SIMH a good way to do
this job ?

Greetings
Sergio

2008/5/22 Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>:

> Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> > With the successful restoration of Unix V1, I was thinking of other
> > operating systems that could be restored in a similar way.
>
> There is no shortage of systems that could be worked on.
> The Berkeley GENIE SDS 940 system, for example. Machine readable
> sources exist, but no drum image, so it would have to be reassembled
> from the existing binaries, and cross-assembled to get the rest.
>
> I'm hoping to recover a bunch of system tapes for the B5700 soon.
>
> Someone else I know has been trying to get the Stretch system software
> running again from listings.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Unix-jun72 mailing list
> Unix-jun72 at tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72
>
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[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Jose R. Valverde]

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Sorry I' ve been a lurker so long after subscribing. I had a problem in my
e-mail configuration and, coupled with some congress travels, missed most
list messages until I noticed today.

Regarding the disassembler, has anyone tried the one derMouse included in
his emulator in TUHS?

I have also found another PDP11 disassembler (for RT11) at

	http://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/

For the bold, there seems to be another PDP11 disassembler in BBC basic
at 
	http://mdfs.net/Software/PDP11/ 
this one comes with an assembler AND SOME UnixIO.mac library which leads 
me to suppose it may work on a.out files. It may probably be used under
a CP/M emulator with BBC Basic.

Finally, what about IDA, the interactive disassembler? It once claimed
to support PDP11 and old versions may be around (the 4.9 is free but 
I ain't sure it still supports PDP11).

Any of those should help build a current one for the a.out format.

BTW, and just for fun, I just found out about pdpxasm, which says is a
"PDP-11 cross-assembler, cross-linker, and cross-disassembler run under
DOS, by Strobe Data Inc." and is also freely downloadable.

Might be fun to see what its cross-disassembler produces. 

				j
			

-- 
	These opinions are mine and only mine. Hey man, I saw them first!

			    José R. Valverde

	De nada sirve la Inteligencia Artificial cuando falta la Natural
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[Unix-jun72] Semi-OT: Other systems to reconstruct?

[Doug Merritt]

I appreciate the constructive suggestions, and they may well
be helpful to someone on the list, but as for what I'm doing,
I *started* with a working disassembler. As you point out,
there's no shortage of pdp 11 disassemblers.

Thing is, it's quite rare for disassemblers to even bother
to begin to try to produce output very similar to the original
input.

An easy example is that they had a mnemonic BES (Branch if
Error Set), which is simply a synonym for BCS (Branch if Carry
Set), but used upon return from system calls that set carry
to indicate error. It wasn't too hard for me to add automatic
disassembly of BES under the stated circumstances, but I would
be surprised if other pdp11 disassemblers did so.

There's a fairly long list of such issues, of varying difficulty.
Handling jsr r5 (which embeds non-executable parameter data right
in the midst of executable instructions, with no clear indication
of where it ends) is one of the few such that *some* disassemblers
out there *might* have tackled, perhaps.

Producing "temporary labels" was my big headache (although I
think I figured it out and would have finished that a while back
if it weren't for other demands on my time).

My goal is to emit assembler code that can be used as a high
quality replacement for lost assembly source code, with an
absolute minimum of post-disassembly hand-massaging by humans.

If anyone wants quick and dirty disassembly for some reason,
sure, it's easily available, go for it. (BTW the stuff I'm working
with isn't "a.out" format; the early stuff is just raw machine
code.)

Two other places to get pdp11 disassembler are the debuggers
db and adb, and also v5/v6 "od", IIRC.

P.S. I visited Google today and walked past Ken's office, but
although he was in, I didn't have time to stop and pester him. :-)
	Doug
--
Professional Wild-eyed Visionary        Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow

[Unix-jun72] DEC 10 for sale on ebay

[Doug Merritt]

A DEC 10 is for sale on ebay (search for "pdp 10" or "KL10");
the seller, apparently a collector letting it go reluctantly,
says it may be the first time one has appeared on ebay, and
so far as I know from foraging there over the years, he may
be right.

This isn't really the right mailing list to pass that word on, but
Warren and some others of you are on other various retro computer
lists where collectors hang out -- please pass the word.

Someone might also check to see if the Computer History Museum
has the funds and interest for it. Bruce Dahmer's museum has
the space for it, but I would guess would want it to be loaned/donated
(i.e. if someone wants to buy it but lacks a place to put it...)

Earlier today it was $1,000 min bid, but that didn't meet the
reserve, with a "buy it now" of $50,000, which the seller said
he considered ridiculously high. He guestimated freight at
$1,000, buyer to pay actual freight; my not-very-educated guess
is that $1,000 is sharply on the low side even for the lower 48 states.

I have some history with 10s and 20s, but they aren't as personally
meaningful to me as pdp11s -- still, if I were a billionaire I would
buy-it-now without a second thought (and boot ITS) :-)
	Doug
--
Professional Wild-eyed Visionary        Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow

[Unix-jun72] DEC 10 for sale on ebay

[Milo Velimirovic]

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On Jun 7, 2008, at 11:06 PM, Doug Merritt wrote:
...
>
> This isn't really the right mailing list to pass that word on, but
> Warren and some others of you are on other various retro computer
> lists where collectors hang out -- please pass the word.

of course it's germane; the box with blue switches at the top of one  
of the cabinets is an 11/40. Mighty expensive way to get a pdp11,  
though. :)

  - Milo

--
Milo Velimirović,  Unix Computer Network Administrator
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA   43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W

[Unix-jun72] DEC 10 for sale on ebay

[Al Kossow]

Doug Merritt wrote:

> Someone might also check to see if the Computer History Museum
> has the funds and interest for it. 

CHM has one.

[Unix-jun72] DEC 10 for sale on ebay

[Brad Parker]

>of course it's germane; the box with blue switches at the top of one  
>of the cabinets is an 11/40. Mighty expensive way to get a pdp11,  
>though. :)

I just wish it were a KS10.  KL's are really cool but just too darn big.

-brad

Brad Parker
Heeltoe Consulting
+1-781-483-3101
http://www.heeltoe.com