* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 1:59 ` Warner Losh
@ 2010-11-14 2:43 ` Pasquale Villani
2010-11-14 7:08 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Pasquale Villani @ 2010-11-14 2:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
This thread made me a little curious so I went to eBay and found an 11/44
there:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP11-44-Computer-Loaded-w-Cards-No-Reserve-/3902560
88856?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5add135718#shId
There's also an FPGA SoC on opencores.com that runs 5th edition UNIX and
2.11 BSD UNIX:
http://opencores.org/project,w11
The latter had been a little more than a passing interest for me, but I just
haven't had the time to play with it.
Pat
On 11/13/10 8:59 PM, "Warner Losh" <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/2010 18:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> Back in the day there was something called a microvax and I think there
>> was a micropdp - it was a tall slim thing. Might google that.
> The MicroPDP11 was in more or less the same form factor as the MicroVAX
> I and II (also marketed as VaxStation I and II). It was also known as
> something like the PDP 11/73. A lower-end version was the Digital PRO
> 350 and 360.
>
> I don't know if any of these ran Unix or not, but you might look into
> them. A few years ago, the PROs were really cheap and used about the
> same power as a PC from 1985.
>
> Warner
>> On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote:
>>> How much does an old pdp-11 type system cost these
>>> days (ie. a pdp-11/40 with disks and terminal capable
>>> of running something like 1st, 6th or 7th ed)?
>>>
>>> How much power do they take up to power on?
>>> Whats maintenance like on those things?
>>>
>>> I've always been curious.
>>>
>>> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 1:59 ` Warner Losh
2010-11-14 2:43 ` Pasquale Villani
@ 2010-11-14 7:08 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2010-11-14 9:56 ` Wilko Bulte
2010-11-14 22:22 ` Nick Downing
2010-11-14 9:51 ` Wilko Bulte
2010-11-14 12:32 ` Pete Turnbull
3 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2010-11-14 7:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Saturday, 13 November 2010 at 18:59:46 -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> On 11/13/2010 18:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote:
>>> How much does an old pdp-11 type system cost these
>>> days (ie. a pdp-11/40 with disks and terminal capable
>>> of running something like 1st, 6th or 7th ed)?
>>>
>>> How much power do they take up to power on?
>>> Whats maintenance like on those things?
>>>
>>> I've always been curious.
>>
>> Back in the day there was something called a microvax and I think there
>> was a micropdp - it was a tall slim thing. Might google that.
>
> The MicroPDP11 was in more or less the same form factor as the
> MicroVAX I and II (also marketed as VaxStation I and II). It was
> also known as something like the PDP 11/73.
I wasn't aware of a MicroPDP-11, but I have an LSI-11/73, photos at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?dirdate=20001122&imagesizes=112#Photo-2
or
http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?dirdate=20061027&imagesizes=13#Photo-1
Clearly it's a little larger than a MicroVAX.
If anybody's interested, this machine is up for grabs. I don't want
any money for it, just the knowledge that it will be looked after. It
comes with a lot of tapes and (RL-02) disks, and also lots of
documentation. If anybody here in Australia wants it, you're welcome
to come and pick it up.
> I don't know if any of these ran Unix or not, but you might look
> into them. A few years ago, the PROs were really cheap and used
> about the same power as a PC from 1985.
This one does. I gather the architecture is identical to the
PDP-11/73. One of the tapes includes the 7th Edition.
Greg
--
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed. See
http://www.lemis.com/grog/email/signed-mail.php for more details.
If your Microsoft MUA reports problems, please read
http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 7:08 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
@ 2010-11-14 9:56 ` Wilko Bulte
2010-11-17 23:36 ` Pete Turnbull
2010-11-14 22:22 ` Nick Downing
1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Wilko Bulte @ 2010-11-14 9:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
11/73:
http://www.chookfest.net/computers/pdp1173.html
BA123: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MicroPDP-11/83
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 9:56 ` Wilko Bulte
@ 2010-11-17 23:36 ` Pete Turnbull
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2010-11-17 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
Wilko Bulte wrote:
> 11/73:
>
> http://www.chookfest.net/computers/pdp1173.html
Unfortunately a few things on that page are inaccurate. For example,
it's not exactly a PDP-11/83, it's really a microPDP-11/73, although the
memory has been rearranged as the writer stated. Both microPDP-11/73
and /83 use KDJ11-B, the difference being that the /73 used 15MHz parts
(as in that one) and the /83s which came later had 18MHz parts, and more
importantly they have different boot ROMs. However the other and
arguably most important difference between /73 and /83 systems is that
the /73s were originally set up with a normal QBus memory configuration,
whereas /83s use PMI memory with the memory in front of the CPU instead
of behind it. The boards in this one have been re-ordered, and although
having the CPU for a microPDP-11/73 it will mostly behave as a
slightly-slow /83.
KDJ11-A boards were used as upgrades for rack-based 11/23s and OEM
systems, not microPDP-11s. So the one on that page is close to its
original configuration, except for the Dilog SCSI controller and the
memory arrangement.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 7:08 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2010-11-14 9:56 ` Wilko Bulte
@ 2010-11-14 22:22 ` Nick Downing
2010-11-15 0:17 ` Larry McVoy
1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Nick Downing @ 2010-11-14 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
Greg, I am in Melbourne and very interested in the 11/73. You might have
noticed in my earlier posts I'm a 2.11BSD experimenter, it would be really,
really great to have an 11 running 2.11BSD on my home network for
experiments. Do you have a DEQNA? It would be well looked after, though
space is a problem sometimes (as it is for everyone) and I may have to put
it in storage from time to time in my father's warehouse, I keep a lot of my
computer parts there. Like you, I am keen to see these important artifacts
preserved. If for some reason I couldn't keep it, I would probably donate
to the Australian Computer History Museum, the only problem with that is
they're in Sydney. I would be really keen to see some of these computers
staying in Melbourne where enthusiasts could access them...
cheers, Nick
PS. My wife will be furious ;)
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 13 November 2010 at 18:59:46 -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On 11/13/2010 18:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >> On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote:
> >>> How much does an old pdp-11 type system cost these
> >>> days (ie. a pdp-11/40 with disks and terminal capable
> >>> of running something like 1st, 6th or 7th ed)?
> >>>
> >>> How much power do they take up to power on?
> >>> Whats maintenance like on those things?
> >>>
> >>> I've always been curious.
> >>
> >> Back in the day there was something called a microvax and I think there
> >> was a micropdp - it was a tall slim thing. Might google that.
> >
> > The MicroPDP11 was in more or less the same form factor as the
> > MicroVAX I and II (also marketed as VaxStation I and II). It was
> > also known as something like the PDP 11/73.
>
> I wasn't aware of a MicroPDP-11, but I have an LSI-11/73, photos at
>
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?dirdate=20001122&imagesizes=112#Photo-2
> or
>
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?dirdate=20061027&imagesizes=13#Photo-1
> Clearly it's a little larger than a MicroVAX.
>
> If anybody's interested, this machine is up for grabs. I don't want
> any money for it, just the knowledge that it will be looked after. It
> comes with a lot of tapes and (RL-02) disks, and also lots of
> documentation. If anybody here in Australia wants it, you're welcome
> to come and pick it up.
>
> > I don't know if any of these ran Unix or not, but you might look
> > into them. A few years ago, the PROs were really cheap and used
> > about the same power as a PC from 1985.
>
> This one does. I gather the architecture is identical to the
> PDP-11/73. One of the tapes includes the 7th Edition.
>
> Greg
> --
> Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed. See
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/email/signed-mail.php for more details.
> If your Microsoft MUA reports problems, please read
> http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 22:22 ` Nick Downing
@ 2010-11-15 0:17 ` Larry McVoy
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2010-11-15 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 09:22:25AM +1100, Nick Downing wrote:
> [good stuff about preserving history...]
> cheers, Nick
> PS. My wife will be furious ;)
Oh, tell her it can always get worse. 4 chainsaws, a log splitter,
a tractor, an ATV, a truck, a van, a boxer motorcycle, a dual sport
about to be dropped off, a work shop the size of a good sized apartment
filled w/ woodworking and metal working tools (and a well stocked fridge),
3 canoes, and a bunch of other stuff not even counting the geek stuff :)
It can get worse, much much worse :-)
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 1:59 ` Warner Losh
2010-11-14 2:43 ` Pasquale Villani
2010-11-14 7:08 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
@ 2010-11-14 9:51 ` Wilko Bulte
2010-11-18 6:34 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2010-11-14 12:32 ` Pete Turnbull
3 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Wilko Bulte @ 2010-11-14 9:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
Quoting Warner Losh, who wrote on Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 06:59:46PM -0700 ..
> On 11/13/2010 18:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >Back in the day there was something called a microvax and I think there
> >was a micropdp - it was a tall slim thing. Might google that.
BA23 box.
> The MicroPDP11 was in more or less the same form factor as the MicroVAX
> I and II (also marketed as VaxStation I and II). It was also known as
Well, sometimes. BA23 box was used for VAXstations, but there was also the
BA123 box, which looks more like a dogs house.
Both my BA23 11/73 and my BA123 MicroVAX are in my storage downstairs
otherwise I would make some pictures.
> something like the PDP 11/73. A lower-end version was the Digital PRO
> 350 and 360.
>
> I don't know if any of these ran Unix or not, but you might look into
> them. A few years ago, the PROs were really cheap and used about the
> same power as a PC from 1985.
The PRO series ran P/OS (really.. weird acronym). I think there used to be
an Ultrix variant for them too. Never used that, did use P/OS while I was
at DEC in the late 80s for my graduation work.
Pro350 was an 11/23 CPU (F11??), the Pro380 was an 11/73 CPU (J11?)
Wilko
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 9:51 ` Wilko Bulte
@ 2010-11-18 6:34 ` Lars Brinkhoff
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2010-11-18 6:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
Wilko Bulte <wkb at xs4all.nl> writes:
> Pro350 was an 11/23 CPU (F11??), the Pro380 was an 11/73 CPU (J11?)
I believe I implemented this mapping in the PDP-11 target for the GNU
assembler:
KA11: 11/15, 11/20
KB11: 11/45, 11/50, 11/55, 11/70
KD11-A: 11/35, 11/40
KD11-B: 11/05, 11/10
KD11-D: 11/04
KD11-E: 11/34
KD11-F: 11/03
KD11-K: 11/60
KD11-Z: 11/44
T11: 11/21
F11: 11/23, 11/24
J11: 11/53, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94
Corrections, additions, explanations welcome.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] pdp11 question
2010-11-14 1:59 ` Warner Losh
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-11-14 9:51 ` Wilko Bulte
@ 2010-11-14 12:32 ` Pete Turnbull
3 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2010-11-14 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
Warner Losh wrote:
> On 11/13/2010 18:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> Back in the day there was something called a microvax and I think there
>> was a micropdp - it was a tall slim thing. Might google that.
> The MicroPDP11 was in more or less the same form factor as the MicroVAX
> I and II (also marketed as VaxStation I and II). It was also known as
> something like the PDP 11/73. A lower-end version was the Digital PRO
> 350 and 360.
The MicroVAX and MicroVAX II postdate the microPDP-11 range (1985 and
1982 resp.), but do indeed use the same boxes: BA23 floorstanding
(sometimes called the space heater, because of its shape) and the larger
BA123 with casters (sometimes called the hostess trolley because of its
shape). Anything else is not a microPDP-11, and any PDP-11 sold in one
of those boxes is a microPDP-11 (as opposed to an 11T23, 11V23, etc).
It's true that the BA23 chassis can be taken out of the floor cabinet
and rack mounted but that's fairly unusual (I've only seen one that way,
and it had been removed from its original floor case).
It's also true that you can convert a MicroVAX to a PDP-11 by swapping
memory and CPU - but there are some VAXstations that you can't convert.
In general, the QBus machines are physically smaller and less
power-hungry than Unibus systems and that's especially true of the
microPDP-11s. Of course it's certainly possible to have a small Unibus
system or a big QBus one!
The first microPDP-11 was the microPDP-11/23 which is a variant of an
11/23-plus in a BA23; it was followed by the microPDP-11/73, usually in
a BA23, and soon after by the micro-PDP-11/83 (same processor, faster
clock and different memory) in either a BA23 or BA123. The
microPDP-11/53 integrates the memory onto the CPU card and is cheaper
but also slower. Later came the 11/93, which is faster -- and that,
along with it's Unibus cousin the 11/94, was the last PDP-11 made.
There's also an 11/84 Unibus machine to match the 11/83, and although
its always a rackmount machine it uses the same CPU and memory as the
11/83 -- but a different CPU box with a different panel and a
Unibus-to-Qbus converter.
The 11/73 that Greg's photos show is slightly unusual; it uses a BA-11
chassis like earlier rackmount QBus machines. You quite often find
11/73s in that form as upgrades to what was previously an 11/03 or 11/23
system. The drive above the CPU box in Greg's system isn't original,
and that rack was part of a system with a pair of RL02s. If it was
originally sold as an 11/73 it would be called an 11/73S (but I don't
think it is, because 11/73S systems had a black decal on the front to
say so), or if it was the result of a CPU upgrade, it would originally
have been an 11T03 or 11T23 system - probably the latter.
You could get the 11/73 CPU card in two versions -- KDJ11-A is a
dual-height card with just the processor and MMU; KDJ11-B is quad-height
and incorporates serial ports, LTC, etc. Similarly there are dual- and
quad-height 11/23 cards called KDF11-A and KDF11-B. The microPDP-11
series always used the quad KDx11-B cards.
Rackmount PDP-11s usually have larger (physically) drives like
RL01/RL02, RK06/7, RM0etc and/or RX01/2 floppies whereas the microPDP
series normally have physically smaller RD or RZ series winchesters and
RX50/33 5.25" drives and perhaps a TK or TZ series tape in a 5.25" form
factor.
You can run 7th Edition on an 11/23 and up (I have an original 7th
Edition machine which is an 11T23). On anything less than 11/73 (like
an 11/34, 11/23, etc) it has some limitations and needs some software
tweaks (and an RL driver was not a standard piece of the code). Mine
has 256KB memory, two RL02s (10MB each) and an RX02 (dual 8" floppy),
and even something as simple as "ls" is slow and accompanied by quite a
lot of very audible disk access. It would be better with more memory.
You can run BSD2.11 on an 11/73 and up (I've got that running on an
11/83 in a BA23 box with 2MB of memory and a 150MB RD54 winchester).
That runs quite well, and it's on my local Ethernet network.
The PRO-325 and -350 are desktop machines and aren't really PDP-11s,
though they do have an F11 CPU chip (same chipset as 11/23 and 11/24,
different board). I think you'd have a hard job running Unix on them as
they have a lot of custom hardware and no QBus or Unibus. Bitmapped
graphics console, no DMA on any I/O devices, and a weird (for DEC)
interrupt system. They normally ran P/OS which is a highly modified
version of DEC's RSX-11 operating system. The later PRO-380 used a J11
processor (as in 11/73,83,84,53 etc).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread