[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Dan Stromberg]

When I boot V7 in SIMH (pdp11), I get a root shell and a root filesystem,
but...  I see that /usr/bin is on root's default PATH, but I have no
/usr/bin directory.  Is there some way I could get a /usr/bin with
additional executables, to get the full flavor of V7?

By way of introduction, I first started with *ix on an AT&T 3Bmumble, and
started really getting into it with SunOS 4.1.1.  I've recently become
interested in trying a large number of different *ix's - I guess it was the
ease with which VirtualBox allowed many of those, and then seeing Nordier's
V7 port to x86 got me curious about trying some really old versions - he
mentioned that there was a pdp11 emulator available...
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[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Larry McVoy]

> By way of introduction, I first started with *ix on an AT&T 3Bmumble, and
> started really getting into it with SunOS 4.1.1.  

SunOS 4.1.1, ah, sweet memories.  I and a bunch of my friends worked on
that one.  Guy Harris, even though he had left for Auspex, would come back
to building 5 at Sun around 5:30, bang on the door, John Pope or I or one
of the other kernel guys who worked into the night, would let him in and
give him a place to work, and for the next few hours you'd hear "Jesus,
they still haven't fixed this?" and some fix would get pushed in.

That was how much we loved SunOS.  Solaris?  Not so much.  We put in tons
of effort to make SunOS good and it was a very pleasant version of Unix.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Dan Stromberg]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Michael Davidson <m_d at pacbell.net> wrote:

> You probably don't have /usr/bin because you haven't mounted /usr yet.
>

That's a good hypothesis, especially given the info I presented, but I do
have -some- things under /usr, and if I manually rerun sh -x /etc/rc in
multiuser, I get an error about /usr already being mounted.


> On V7 as best I can remember. /usr was always a mounted filesystem.
>
> So, somewhere in your V7 image there should be a disk image for /usr that
> can be hooked up to an appropriate device under SIMH and then mounted.



> Actually, it might already be there if your disk image is the entire device
> and not just the root filesystem - if you can figure out what your root
> device is then I would expect /usr to be on the same major device number but
> with aminor device # of 2 (root being 0 and swap being 1).
>

I'm thinking /usr is /dev/rp3, because my /etc/rc looks like:

# cat /etc/rc
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin
echo "Restricted rights: Use, duplication, or disclosure
is subject to restrictions stated in your contract with
Western Electric Company, Inc." >/dev/console
rm /etc/mtab
cat /dev/null >/etc/utmp
/etc/mount /dev/rp3 /usr
rm -f /usr/spool/lpd/lock
: /etc/accton /usr/adm/acct
rm -f /usr/tmp/*
rm -f /tmp/*
/etc/update
date >/dev/console
/etc/cron



> Actually if you just take the system multi-user it might even do it for
> you.


This does seem to at least try to mount /usr for me - hitting ctrl-d at the
initial singleuser #, that is.

Interestingly though, it seems that the number of directories in /usr is the
same on first boot into single user, as after /etc/rc has run as part of
entering multiuser, so perhaps my root filesystem has things in /usr that
would normally be obscured by a /usr mount.  Also, /etc/mtab seems untouched
(in fact, it's nonexistent) after entering multiuser, and the output of
/etc/mount continues to be nothing.

touch /t does create a file named t in the root directory, so it's not
something about the root filesystem being readonly.

I'm puzzled.  And yet, I'm enjoying it. :)

Any suggestions?


> --- On *Wed, 8/3/11, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com>
> Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 7:53 PM
>
>
>
> When I boot V7 in SIMH (pdp11), I get a root shell and a root filesystem,
> but...  I see that /usr/bin is on root's default PATH, but I have no
> /usr/bin directory.  Is there some way I could get a /usr/bin with
> additional executables, to get the full flavor of V7?
>
> By way of introduction, I first started with *ix on an AT&T 3Bmumble, and
> started really getting into it with SunOS 4.1.1.  I've recently become
> interested in trying a large number of different *ix's - I guess it was the
> ease with which VirtualBox allowed many of those, and then seeing Nordier's
> V7 port to x86 got me curious about trying some really old versions - he
> mentioned that there was a pdp11 emulator available...
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org <http://mc/compose?to=TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org>
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Tim Newsham]

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try the dist here http://homepages.thm.de/~hg53/pdp11-unix/

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When I boot V7 in SIMH (pdp11), I get a root shell and a root filesystem,
> but...  I see that /usr/bin is on root's default PATH, but I have no
> /usr/bin directory.  Is there some way I could get a /usr/bin with
> additional executables, to get the full flavor of V7?
>
> By way of introduction, I first started with *ix on an AT&T 3Bmumble, and
> started really getting into it with SunOS 4.1.1.  I've recently become
> interested in trying a large number of different *ix's - I guess it was the
> ease with which VirtualBox allowed many of those, and then seeing Nordier's
> V7 port to x86 got me curious about trying some really old versions - he
> mentioned that there was a pdp11 emulator available...
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Sven Mascheck]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 07:53:44PM -0700, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> When I boot V7 in SIMH (pdp11), I get a root shell and a root filesystem,
> but...  I see that /usr/bin is on root's default PATH, but I have no
> /usr/bin directory.  Is there some way I could get a /usr/bin with
> additional executables, to get the full flavor of V7?

It's not unusual to have no /usr/bin at first,
see "Setting Up Unix" in the 7th ed man, vol2b:

"The system as distributed has all of the binaries in /bin.  Most of
 them should be moved to /usr/bin, leaving only the ones required for
 system maintenance (such as icheck, dcheck, cc, ed, restor, etc.)
 and the most heavily used in /bin.  This will speed things up a bit
 if you have only one disk, and also free up space on the root file
 system for temporary files."

[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Sven Mascheck]

Sven Mascheck wrote:

> see "Setting Up Unix" in the 7th ed man, vol2b:
> 
> "The system as distributed has all of the binaries in /bin.  Most of
>  them should be moved to /usr/bin, leaving only the ones required for
>  system maintenance (such as icheck, dcheck, cc, ed, restor, etc.)
>  and the most heavily used in /bin.  This will speed things up a bit
>  if you have only one disk, and also free up space on the root file
>  system for temporary files."


- Some are certainly required in /bin because /usr/bin
  might be on a separate disk.  So this certainly includes
  all important diagnostic and repair tools.
  (And keep in mind that pwd, echo and test were not built
   into the 7th ed Bourne shell, yet.)

But which binaries "could" be moved to /usr/bin then?

Out of curiosity I had a look for other (strict) criteria
apart from that you certainly always want to have the
diagnostic+repair tools available in case of problems.

- Some commands are strictly required in /bin because of
  hardcoded exec() paths:  getty(8) execs to /bin/login,
  mv(1) requires /bin/cp,
	
  while other commands interestingly try to exec in both
  directories, rm(1) (-r) does so with "rmdir", tar(1) with
  "mkdir", bc(1) with "dc", and refer(1) with "sort".

  find(1) requires "pwd", but uses popen().

- the absolute minimum in /bin to boot is actually
	sh

  (because mount is in /etc),
  For going multiuser you also need the hardcoded
	login

  And for getting all diagnostic messages (e.g. /etc/rc)
  when going multiuser - with a separate /usr disk -
  you need
	echo, cat, rm, date

- If you don't want to mess around with temporary copies of
  binaries, you need especially for mv :)
	cp

- Searching the commands code for hardcoded paths also yields
	newgrp, as, cc, ld, pwd, 
 

BTW, the System III distribution had these in /bin, AFAIK,

  acctcom   chmod  diff     find  ln      nm      rm     strip  touch
  adb       chown  dirname  grep  ls      nohup   rmail  stty   true
  ar        cmp    du       kas   mail    od      rmdir  STTY   tty
  as        cp     echo     kasb  make    passwd  rsh    su     uname
  basename  cpio   ed       kill  mesg    pdp11   sed    sum    vax
  bs        crypt  env      kun   mkdir   pr      sh     sync   wc
  cat       date   expr     kunb  mv      ps      size   tail   who
  cc        dd     false    ld    newgrp  pwd     sleep  tee    write
  chgrp     df     file     line  nice    red     sort   time


I agree they knew better than me anyway.
So I guess just the above,
minus the SysIII-only commands,
plus the 7thEd-only commands
might be just right for /bin, and that's

  ar   chgrp  date    echo   icheck  mkdir   ps      sh     tail
  as   chmod  dc      ed     kill    mv      pwd     size   test
  at   chown  dcheck  false  ld      ncheck  restor  sleep  touch
  bc   clri   dd      file   ln      newgrp  rm      sort   true
  cat  cmp    df      find   login   od      rmdir   stty   tty
  cc   cp     du      grep   ls      passwd  sed     su

[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Dan Stromberg]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Sven Mascheck <mascheck at in-ulm.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 07:53:44PM -0700, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> > When I boot V7 in SIMH (pdp11), I get a root shell and a root filesystem,
> > but...  I see that /usr/bin is on root's default PATH, but I have no
> > /usr/bin directory.  Is there some way I could get a /usr/bin with
> > additional executables, to get the full flavor of V7?
>
> It's not unusual to have no /usr/bin at first,
> see "Setting Up Unix" in the 7th ed man, vol2b:
>

Shouldn't there be a tar command somewhere on the system, as installed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_%28file_format%29 indicates that V7 had a
tar format.
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[TUHS] /usr/bin on V7?

[Sven Mascheck]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19:46AM -0700, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> Shouldn't there be a tar command somewhere on the system, as installed?

  # ls -l /bin/tar
  -rwxrwxr-x 1 root    17724 May 16 15:19 /bin/tar

Perhaps you might want to get a better image (you have been
recommended one already) or reinstall.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_%28file_format%29 indicates that V7
> had a tar format.

Why guessing?
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/tar