[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>

    >> have been kicking around the idea of repairing the11/45 I scored some
    >> years ago (11/45 system number 273 from Stanford University)
    >> ..
    >> Any pointers to who has parts and troubleshooting knowledge would be a
    >> big help.

Anyone seriously working on bringing old hardware back to life needs to get
in touch with the Classic Computer Talk list:

    http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk

A wealth of experience and knowledge on every conceivable topic involved in
old hardware is available there, and people are very helpful.

	Noel

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 4 Oct 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> Anyone seriously working on bringing old hardware back to life needs to 
> get in touch with the Classic Computer Talk list:

Is John Dodson on this list?  He has an 11/70 in his house.

-- Dave

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2014-10-07 03:00, norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson) wrote:

>
>    The 11/70 service manual is all good, but it's definitely not enough.
>    Ideally, you should have access to the full drawings, the service manual
>    for the CPU, the service manual for the memory subsystem, I seem to
>    remember that the FP11 has its own service manual, and I think the
>    massbus interface also has its own documentation set.
>    Also, the memory system consists of both the Unibus map, the cache and
>    memory bus system, and they you have separate documentation for the
>    memory boxes (either MJ11 or MK11 box).
>
> It might be worth while to contact the Living Computer Museum.
> I forget whether they have an 11/70 running or just an 11/45,
> but I do know that they collect all the documentation they can
> get for old computers--I saw the room where they store it.
> Whenever they need to use it, or there's some other need to
> access it, they try to make time to scan it, so the precious
> copy can stay in the archive room.

LCM have atleast one 11/70 running. Although they are not really doing 
anything fun on it. I hope to maybe help them with that next time I'm 
there. I can't remember seeing any 11/45 running, but I'm pretty sure 
there are some in their storage if nothing else...

I'm not going to try dragging a lot of documentation from Sweden to 
Seattle, though (I'm not even in Sweden myself lots of the time). On the 
other hand, I know they have plenty of documentation, so I would hope 
they (and/or CHM) already have most of it.

> Since their goal is to have ancient computers actually
> running, they are certainly interested in having all the
> documents (even if you can't get the wood, as Warren might
> remark at this point), including full engineering drawings.
>
> It's also a neat place to visit if you have some free time in
> Seattle.  I'm disappointed to have figured out that, although
> I'll be in Seattle for a conference in about a month, I won't
> be able to visit LCM while they're open unless I skip some
> conference sessions ... or unless I can convince them to open
> up specially.  Anyone else on this list planning to attend
> LISA and interested in visiting a museum of old running
> computers?

I know of the place, and have known Rich Alderson for a long time.
It is a fun place, and I could see myself working there, if I just had 
the right offer. Don't expect that to happen, though...

I'll be there for different reasons in about a month from now. But my 
weekends are free... :-)

	Johnny

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Norman Wilson]

  The 11/70 service manual is all good, but it's definitely not enough.
  Ideally, you should have access to the full drawings, the service manual 
  for the CPU, the service manual for the memory subsystem, I seem to 
  remember that the FP11 has its own service manual, and I think the 
  massbus interface also has its own documentation set.
  Also, the memory system consists of both the Unibus map, the cache and 
  memory bus system, and they you have separate documentation for the 
  memory boxes (either MJ11 or MK11 box).

It might be worth while to contact the Living Computer Museum.
I forget whether they have an 11/70 running or just an 11/45,
but I do know that they collect all the documentation they can
get for old computers--I saw the room where they store it.
Whenever they need to use it, or there's some other need to
access it, they try to make time to scan it, so the precious
copy can stay in the archive room.

Since their goal is to have ancient computers actually
running, they are certainly interested in having all the
documents (even if you can't get the wood, as Warren might
remark at this point), including full engineering drawings.

It's also a neat place to visit if you have some free time in
Seattle.  I'm disappointed to have figured out that, although
I'll be in Seattle for a conference in about a month, I won't
be able to visit LCM while they're open unless I skip some
conference sessions ... or unless I can convince them to open
up specially.  Anyone else on this list planning to attend
LISA and interested in visiting a museum of old running
computers?

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2014-10-05 03:00, Dave Horsfall<dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 4 Oct 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>> >Anyone seriously working on bringing old hardware back to life needs to
>> >get in touch with the Classic Computer Talk list:
> Is John Dodson on this list?  He has an 11/70 in his house.

No idea. I occasionally scan cctalk, but most of the time don't bother. 
Too much noise and irrelevant or ignorant posts. However, unfortunately 
I don't have any better suggestions where to go if you are trying to 
restore old hardware and don't have enough knowledge.

And yes, I keep lots of different PDP-8, PDP-11 and VAXen running, 
including 11/70 systems.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Nick Downing]

I had an 11/70 service manual as an ebook at one stage, it had full
schematics etc, you also have access to various simulators to help you
understand the programming interface so i can't see what other info you
would need for your restoration, maybe you'd need help jerry rigging some
setup to get an initial tape written to get u started?

If you have any questions about the schematics or electrical
troubleshooting I'm happy to help although I have never owned a physical
pdp11... concepts are the same as any more modern system.

cheers, Nick
On 06/10/2014 8:08 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2014-10-05 03:00, Dave Horsfall<dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sat, 4 Oct 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>>  >Anyone seriously working on bringing old hardware back to life needs to
>>> >get in touch with the Classic Computer Talk list:
>>>
>> Is John Dodson on this list?  He has an 11/70 in his house.
>>
>
> No idea. I occasionally scan cctalk, but most of the time don't bother.
> Too much noise and irrelevant or ignorant posts. However, unfortunately I
> don't have any better suggestions where to go if you are trying to restore
> old hardware and don't have enough knowledge.
>
> And yes, I keep lots of different PDP-8, PDP-11 and VAXen running,
> including 11/70 systems.
>
>         Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Johnny Billquist]

The 11/70 service manual is all good, but it's definitely not enough.
Ideally, you should have access to the full drawings, the service manual 
for the CPU, the service manual for the memory subsystem, I seem to 
remember that the FP11 has its own service manual, and I think the 
massbus interface also has its own documentation set.
Also, the memory system consists of both the Unibus map, the cache and 
memory bus system, and they you have separate documentation for the 
memory boxes (either MJ11 or MK11 box).

I don't know how much documentation have been scanned, and I haven't 
really checked. Since I still have access to all the documentation on 
paper I usually use that.

I don't even remember all the manuals and drawings that exist.

	Johnny

On 2014-10-05 23:46, Nick Downing wrote:
> I had an 11/70 service manual as an ebook at one stage, it had full
> schematics etc, you also have access to various simulators to help you
> understand the programming interface so i can't see what other info you
> would need for your restoration, maybe you'd need help jerry rigging
> some setup to get an initial tape written to get u started?
>
> If you have any questions about the schematics or electrical
> troubleshooting I'm happy to help although I have never owned a physical
> pdp11... concepts are the same as any more modern system.
>
> cheers, Nick
>
> On 06/10/2014 8:08 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se
> <mailto:bqt at update.uu.se>> wrote:
>
>     On 2014-10-05 03:00, Dave Horsfall<dave at horsfall.org
>     <mailto:dave at horsfall.org>> wrote:
>
>
>         On Sat, 4 Oct 2014, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>              >Anyone seriously working on bringing old hardware back to
>             life needs to
>              >get in touch with the Classic Computer Talk list:
>
>         Is John Dodson on this list?  He has an 11/70 in his house.
>
>
>     No idea. I occasionally scan cctalk, but most of the time don't
>     bother. Too much noise and irrelevant or ignorant posts. However,
>     unfortunately I don't have any better suggestions where to go if you
>     are trying to restore old hardware and don't have enough knowledge.
>
>     And yes, I keep lots of different PDP-8, PDP-11 and VAXen running,
>     including 11/70 systems.
>
>              Johnny
>
>     --
>     Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                        ||  on a psychedelic trip
>     email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se>             ||
>     Reading murder books
>     pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>     _________________________________________________
>     TUHS mailing list
>     TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org>
>     https://minnie.tuhs.org/__mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>     <https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs>
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Warren Toomey]

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Also, I had this e-mail sent to me from Jacob who is a long-time TUHS
person. Again, he has questions I don't know the answers to. Anybody?

Cheers, Warren
----- Forwarded message from Jacob Ritorto -----

   Greetings Warren,
   Â  It's been decades since we last corresponded and I'm delighted to
   see that you're still active in the pdp11 unix community!  I've found
   some free time and have been kicking around the idea of repairing
   the11/45 I scored some years ago (11/45 system number 273 from Stanford
   University) and installing 2.9bsd on it.  You helped me out years ago
   when I had an 11/34 and I managed to do it back then, so I have some
   hope this time around too, though there are some more serious hurdles
   now.  Glad to see that a lot of the license trolling finally appears
   to be settled and we can have unfettered access to all the good stuff!
   Â
   Â  Any pointers to who
   has parts and troubleshooting knowledge would be a big help.
   Â  Softwarewise, I was also thinking I'd like to get my Fuji160 disks
   working on the machine.  Has work like this been done already, or
   would you have pointers as to how to go about it?
   Â Â Also, has anyone written a miniature httpd for any of the ancient
   bsds?
   thanks
   jake
----- End forwarded message -----

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[random832]

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On Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 23:36, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Also, I had this e-mail sent to me from Jacob who is a long-time TUHS
> person. Again, he has questions I don't know the answers to. Anybody?
> 
> Cheers, Warren
> ----- Forwarded message from Jacob Ritorto -----
> 
...
>    Â Â Also, has anyone written a miniature httpd for any of the ancient
>    bsds?

Seeing this question, I figured "it can't be that hard", and managed to
get tinyhttpd  http://tinyhttpd.sourceforge.net/ to compile on 2.11BSD.
Mostly just required K&R-ification, though I also had to fix some bugs
in the way it uses buffers to get it to work at all. Normal GET requests
work; The whole CGI thing I disabled because I couldn't get it to work
reliably even on modern linux.

Not actually tested, though - I couldn't get simh to emulate a network
device.

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[random832]

On Sat, Oct 4, 2014, at 12:37, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> nice.  may i see your difffs?
> 
> On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 4:06 AM, <random832 at fastmail.us> wrote:
> >
> > Seeing this question, I figured "it can't be that hard", and managed to
> > get tinyhttpd  http://tinyhttpd.sourceforge.net/ to compile on 2.11BSD.
> > Mostly just required K&R-ification, though I also had to fix some bugs
> > in the way it uses buffers to get it to work at all. Normal GET requests
> > work; The whole CGI thing I disabled because I couldn't get it to work
> > reliably even on modern linux.
> >
> > Not actually tested, though - I couldn't get simh to emulate a network
> > device.


Sure.

Security note: the httpd itself doesn't appear to do anything about e.g.
".." in pathnames, and I didn't do anything about that.

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[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[random832]

On Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 13:47, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> awesome, man, thanks.  If I fork tinyhttpd on github, mind if I use 'em?
> I'll attribute to you of course  If ok, any license preference?  I
> usually
> use MIT..

tinyhttpd itself is not mine and appears to be under the GPL.

[TUHS] 2.9bsd on 11/45 restoration

[Peter Jeremy]

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On 2014-Oct-03 13:36:32 +1000, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Jacob Ritorto -----
>   Â Â Also, has anyone written a miniature httpd for any of the ancient
>   bsds?

You probably won't get much smaller than hibachi
(http://ioccc.org/2004/hibachi.tar.gz).

Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried building it on an old Unix.

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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