[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>

    > I loved my Ambassador!

Ditto!

    > Still have one.

Argh! Now you've made me want one for my vintage -11's! Alas, I don't see one
on eBay.... :-(

	Noel

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2014-12-31 21:14, Clem Cole<clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> Jake - you have lots of help from others and using curses(3) is definitely
> the right way to program.
>
> But to answer your specific question about printf(string), according to
> Chapter 3 (Programmer's Info) of my old VT-100 user's guide, I think what
> is you are doing wrong is that "\033c" is not the ANSI clear to end of
> screen command.

Right...

> When I saw your message on my iPhone last night, the cache said - wait that
> can't be correct.   But I could not remember why.   So I had to wait until
> I got back home today to look in my basement.
>
> As I suspected, it's not an ANSI sequence.  So are you running in VT-100
> (ANSI) mode or VT52 mode?  I ask because it is close to the VT52 cursor
> right command which is actually:  "\033C"  but I do not remember is case
> mattered.

Case do matter.

> In VT52 mode you need to send the terminal:  "\033H\033J" to clear the
> screen.
>
> In ANSI mode, it becomes:  "\033[1;1\033[0J"

Shorter form: "\033[H\033[J"

> A few things to remember:
> 1.) Clear takes the current cursor position and clears from there to end of
> X (where X depends on mode, and type of clear).  So you need to move the
> cursor to home position (aka 1,1).

Not really. It's way more advanced than that.

If we start with the generic clear screen, it is CSI Pn J

Where CSI can be expressed as ESC [ (or "\033[" in the same parlance as 
above.)

Pn, then is an argument to the function, while J is the actual function 
(clear screen in this case).

Now, Pn can cause many things:

0	Clear from cursor to end of screen
1	Clear from cursor to end of screen
2	Clear from beginning of screen to cursor
3	Clear whole screen

If no argument is given, the default is 0.

> 2.) VT-100's did not implement the full ANSI spec like Ann Arbor, Heathkit,
> Wyse etc.  So there are a number of things that those terminals did
> better.  A really good reason to you curses(3) because all the knowledge is
> keep in the termcap and as a programmer you don't need to worry about it.

Probably true. However, I'm not sure Ann Arbor or Heathkit did much 
better. As far as I can remember, they were always more "weird", but I 
might just be confused. However, curses(3) is definitely a good way of 
not having to care about different terminal oddities.

> 3.) I saw sites were VT52 mode was sometimes preferred because it was good
> enough for most editing, and needed fewer chars to do manipulation.  On
> slow serial lines, this sometimes was helpful.  That said, give me an AAA
> any day.  Like others, I still miss that terminal.:-)

Yeah, the VT52 was simpler, and had shorter control strings. But of 
course, with the additional limitations that came with that.

Personally, I'd give an AAA or a Heathkit away if one was dropped on me. 
A VT100 I would keep. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Erik E. Fair]

All those terminal quirks made writing termcap entries challenging
(I wrote a few), and made the comments in the termcap file interesting
reading for the frustration and cursing of terminal firmware authors.
All kinds of history of the evolution of terminals is captured therein.

The removal of the ability to read the source is - IMHO - what
greatly impeded adoption of the AT&T "termlib" replacement for
termcap: they stopped distributing the terminal database source
(they distributed just the binary "compiled" versions), and made it
harder to write new entries.

	Erik <fair at netbsd.org>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-01-01 02:29, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> All those terminal quirks made writing termcap entries challenging
> (I wrote a few), and made the comments in the termcap file interesting
> reading for the frustration and cursing of terminal firmware authors.
> All kinds of history of the evolution of terminals is captured therein.
>
> The removal of the ability to read the source is - IMHO - what
> greatly impeded adoption of the AT&T "termlib" replacement for
> termcap: they stopped distributing the terminal database source
> (they distributed just the binary "compiled" versions), and made it
> harder to write new entries.

I was way to removed from the action to know, but why did people slowly 
move over to termlib? Was there really any advantages over termcap?

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

The move was from termcap to terminfo.  Termlib was the library for termcap.

There were two problems with termcap.  One was that the two-character 
name space was running out of room, and the codes were becoming less and 
less mnemonic.

But the big motivator was performance.  Reading in a termcap entry from 
/etc/termcap was terribly slow.  First you had to scan all the way 
through the (ever-growing) termcap file to find the correct entry.  Once 
you had it, every tgetstr (etc) had to scan from the beginning of the 
entry, so starting up a program like vi involved quadratic performance 
(time grew as the square of the length of the termcap entry.)  The VAX 
11/780 was a 1 MIPS processor (about the same as a 1 MHz Pentium) and 
was shared among dozens of timesharing users, and some of the other 
machines of the day (750 and 730 Vaxen, PDP-11, etc.) were even slower.  
It took forever to start up vi or more or any of the termcap-based 
programs people were using a lot.

I wrote a paper about it for Usenix in 1982, but it seems to be lost to 
Google.  Here is a nice write-up Pavel Curtis posted about it with more 
detail about the motivation:

http://www.informatica.co.cr/unix-source-code/research/1982/0711.html

     Mary Ann

On 01/01/2015 07:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-01-01 02:29, Erik E. Fair wrote:
>> All those terminal quirks made writing termcap entries challenging
>> (I wrote a few), and made the comments in the termcap file interesting
>> reading for the frustration and cursing of terminal firmware authors.
>> All kinds of history of the evolution of terminals is captured therein.
>>
>> The removal of the ability to read the source is - IMHO - what
>> greatly impeded adoption of the AT&T "termlib" replacement for
>> termcap: they stopped distributing the terminal database source
>> (they distributed just the binary "compiled" versions), and made it
>> harder to write new entries.
>
> I was way to removed from the action to know, but why did people 
> slowly move over to termlib? Was there really any advantages over 
> termcap?
>
>     Johnny
>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 1 Jan 2015, Mary Ann Horton wrote:

> The move was from termcap to terminfo.  Termlib was the library for 
> termcap.

Oops - ignore my subsequent contribution (it *was* some years ago...).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 1 Jan 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> I was way to removed from the action to know, but why did people slowly 
> move over to termlib? Was there really any advantages over termcap?

It was a lot more flexible; attribute names could be of arbitrary length, 
whereas Termcap confined you to two characters IIRC.  You had to get a bit 
imaginative in the naming of new attributes...


-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

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below ..

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

>
> Case do matter.

​I thought so, but it's been years since I played with any of this.​




>
> Shorter form: "\033[H\033[J"

​right - that looks much more what I remember.



>
>  2.) VT-100's did not implement the full ANSI spec like Ann Arbor,
>> Heathkit,
>> Wyse etc.  So there are a number of things that those terminals did
>> better.  A really good reason to you curses(3) because all the knowledge
>> is
>> keep in the termcap and as a programmer you don't need to worry about it.
>>
>
> Probably true. However, I'm not sure Ann Arbor or Heathkit did much better.

​They did - but they had the advantage of complete spec, which when then
VT-100 team did their thing, was working with a proposal.​




> As far as I can remember, they were always more "weird"

​I guess.   Maybe the were not too go at running programs like EDT on VMS.
which used the DEC private sequences.  As I recall you grew up on RSX and
VMS so would not have had the same affinity that we in the UNIX side did.

VMS folks tended to stay with something that looked a lot like VT-100,
whereas UNIX folks often chose more functionality in the terminal.



>
>
> Personally, I'd give an AAA or a Heathkit away if one was dropped on me. A
> VT100 I would keep. :-)


​To each each his own.  I still have an H19 and a Wyse-60.  Would love to
find an old AAA, but I personally would not bother with any member of
VT-100 family since most SW emulators are "good enough" for my use when I
might want VT-100 specifics.​

​  I heard that some folks in the VMS world gripe about the emulators not
being good enough, but my use has never been that much and certainly there
are lots of other issues with the newer VT-xxx's that drove me bonkers.

​I've sometimes toyed with the thought of taking one of the Mac Terminal
emulators and hacking it in AAA features, but it's never been​ high on my
list. I have always had too many other worthy projects in front of it.
Truth is the programmable keyboard macros of the Tek 4025 and AAA are what
I miss in modern systems more than anything else.

Then again, if I had one, I'd probably hate the keyboard layout these days.
Once the ANSI/ECMA keyboard layout came out, I forced myself to key used to
it and actually now prefer it.   But that took years to reprogram the ROMS
in my fingers. ;-)

Clem
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Johnny Billquist]

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On 2015-01-01 17:01, Clem Cole wrote:
> below ..
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se
> <mailto:bqt at update.uu.se>> wrote:
>
>
>         2.) VT-100's did not implement the full ANSI spec like Ann
>         Arbor, Heathkit,
>         Wyse etc.  So there are a number of things that those terminals did
>         better.  A really good reason to you curses(3) because all the
>         knowledge is
>         keep in the termcap and as a programmer you don't need to worry
>         about it.
>
>
>     Probably true. However, I'm not sure Ann Arbor or Heathkit did much
>     better.
>
> ​They did - but they had the advantage of complete spec, which when then
> VT-100 team did their thing, was working with a proposal.​

True. Not sure how much changed though. Do you have any list of things 
that differs, and things that AA or Heathkit did better?

>     As far as I can remember, they were always more "weird"
>
> ​I guess.   Maybe the were not too go at running programs like EDT on
> VMS. which used the DEC private sequences.  As I recall you grew up on
> RSX and VMS so would not have had the same affinity that we in the UNIX
> side did.

True that I grew up on DEC OSes, but I never used EDT. Always Emacs. 
(Proper Emacs, that is, not the GNU stuff... :-) )

> VMS folks tended to stay with something that looked a lot like VT-100,
> whereas UNIX folks often chose more functionality in the terminal.

Possible. But people in general seems to have preferred the VT100 to 
most other stuff on Unix as well, judging by history.

>     Personally, I'd give an AAA or a Heathkit away if one was dropped on
>     me. A VT100 I would keep. :-)
>
>
> ​To each each his own.  I still have an H19 and a Wyse-60.  Would love
> to find an old AAA, but I personally would not bother with any member of
> VT-100 family since most SW emulators are "good enough" for my use when
> I might want VT-100 specifics.​

Indeed. To each his own. No problem with that.
And yes, most VT-100 emulators suck seriously. I usually identifies the 
first problem within 10 seconds, and almost all emulators do some of the 
common simple stuff wrong.

xterm is my savior. It actually do things pretty might right all the time.

> ​  I heard that some folks in the VMS world gripe about the emulators
> not being good enough, but my use has never been that much and certainly
> there are lots of other issues with the newer VT-xxx's that drove me
> bonkers.

Let me guess - the missing escape key? :-)
(That one drove almost everyone bonkers...)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

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below...

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

>
> True. Not sure how much changed though. Do you have any list of things
> that differs, and things that AA or Heathkit did better?

​I've forgotten the specifics. MaryAnn may remember - having lived much of
the brain-damage with so many manufactures.  IIRC: Erase and line
operations was one of them.  Tom implemented the regions stuff which again,
if I remember could be dorked into doing some of the stuff that was
missing/different.   Unfortunately, they deviated it as hard to come back
to what the rest of the world did.   Plus Tom left DEC for Masscomp around
the time of 102 FW and I suspect that sort of sealed it a little.

I've lost track of him, but I heard at a party a week before Christmas that
he is still knocking around the area, so if I can dig him up, I'll try to
remember to ask him.




>
>  Always Emacs. (Proper Emacs, that is, not the GNU stuff... :-) )

​Fair enough.   FYI: I learned Emacs on the 10s before I ever saw UNIX.
Gosling would not come to CMU for another couple of years, so we used ed
and later "Fred" which was the first screen editor for UNIX I saw.  By the
time CMU and MIT Emacs made it to UNIX I was at Berkeley and vi was burned
into the roms.

​


> Possible. But people in general seems to have preferred the VT100 to most
> other stuff on Unix as well, judging by history.

​I'm not so sure.  My experience is otherwise.  There were two vectors at
the time - cheap/simple (think ADM3A and later Wyse) and smart/expensive
(think HP & Tek and later AA).  The VT-100 family fell in-between.   You
are right, it was incredibly successful and the fact is there were lots of
clones​ of the VT-100 - so you did see them on UNIX boxes sometimes.

But as Horton mentioned on the termcap/terminfo thread - there were a ton
of players in the cheap/simple side.   I think more UNIX sites tended to
play out the cheap and simple over anything else, so most sites would get a
deal on a one or another.   CMU went with PK's Fox with smattering of ADMs.
  UCB was ADMs or something very high end.  I saw most of the smart HP &
Tek terminals at the BTL sites.

My experience was that VMS/RSX, and to some extent, Twinex, shops tended to
migrate to the VT-100s or clones - probably because the native DEC SW were
well intregrated, but Unix folks either wanted cheap or as much
functionality as possible.   Curses(3) really allowed that occur.   I think
"cheap and simple" came first, but once termcap existed, it really allowed
the UNIX folks to use what ever they wanted.   But as Erik mentioned, we
all had to hack termcap entries (usually by hacking on an existing one).


> xterm is my savior. It actually do things pretty might right all the time.

​Twas for me too for a long time.   iterm2 on the Mac is that pretty much
my standard these days.

​

> Let me guess - the missing escape key? :-)
> (That one drove almost everyone bonkers...)

​Just one of many :-)  Control and Caps were in wrong place.

BTW: Tek had a layout was worse - it had the 0 next to 1 which caused me to
make a painful screw up.  I've forgotten which terminal it was, but we had
one of them as console on the Teklab 11/60 and I typo-ed and wiped out a
bunch of Fred Park's life work.​

​   Thus creating the infamous "guts in the bucket/​ball on a platter"
comment in the bugs section of the RT-PIP man page that got me in trouble a
few years later.
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Johnny Billquist]

The information give is correct. You could possibly argue that you 
shouldn't be using those functions, but should be using the curses(3) 
library instead, which in turn uses this stuff... But it's all up to how 
complex you want to be. :-)

	Johnny

On 2014-12-31 07:16, Jacob Ritorto<jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mary, this is exactly what I needed -- good to go now; thank you!
>
> As a side note: Man, what an intimidating can of braindamage I've opened!:)
>
> thanks all!
> jake
>
> P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to spend a
> little time programming rather than just playing video games when he's near
> a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff and is honestly
> interested when he understands it and sees it work -- and he even spotted a
> bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to raise issues, pull requests,
> etc. if you like -- I'm putting him through the git committing and pair
> programming paces, so outside interaction would be kinda fun:)
>
> P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Mary Ann Horton<mah at mhorton.net>  wrote:
>
>> >This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent,
>> >tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.
>> >
>> >Essentially:
>> >     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from
>> >/etc/termcap
>> >     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear"
>> >sequence
>> >     tputs                                        outputs the "clear"
>> >sequence
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> >
>>> >>Check outhttps://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/
>>> >>html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
>>> >>- especially the "cl" entry.
>>> >>
>>> >>ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[arnold]

Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> The information give is correct. You could possibly argue that you 
> shouldn't be using those functions, but should be using the curses(3) 
> library instead, which in turn uses this stuff... But it's all up to how 
> complex you want to be. :-)

I don't doubt that Mary Ann has forgotten more about curses and
termcap/termlib than most of us will ever know...

Arnold

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?

thx
jake
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Milo Velimirovic]

man clear

On Dec 30, 2014, at 4:56 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Larry McVoy]

Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 05:56:30PM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake

> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

cls is MS-DOS =p

clear is what it is in current *x, at least.

-uso.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Warren Toomey]

2.11 BSD has clear (1).
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
Cheers Warren

On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>
>thx
>jake
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>TUHS mailing list
>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
of a c program.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
> Cheers Warren
>
> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>
>> thx
>> jake
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dan Stromberg]

Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
- especially the "cl" entry.

ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
> of a c program.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>
>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>> Cheers Warren
>>
>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>
>>> thx
>>> jake
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent, 
tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.

Essentially:
     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from 
/etc/termcap
     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear" 
sequence
     tputs                                        outputs the "clear" 
sequence

On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
> - especially the "cl" entry.
>
> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
>> of a c program.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>> Cheers Warren
>>>
>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>
>>>> thx
>>>> jake
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

Mary, this is exactly what I needed -- good to go now; thank you!

As a side note: Man, what an intimidating can of braindamage I've opened! :)

thanks all!
jake

P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to spend a
little time programming rather than just playing video games when he's near
a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff and is honestly
interested when he understands it and sees it work -- and he even spotted a
bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to raise issues, pull requests,
etc. if you like -- I'm putting him through the git committing and pair
programming paces, so outside interaction would be kinda fun :)

P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..


On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent,
> tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.
>
> Essentially:
>     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from
> /etc/termcap
>     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear"
> sequence
>     tputs                                        outputs the "clear"
> sequence
>
>
> On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/
>> html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
>> - especially the "cl" entry.
>>
>> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the
>>> context
>>> of a c program.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>>> Cheers Warren
>>>>
>>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <
>>>> jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> thx
>>>>> jake
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2014, Warren Toomey wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).

Ah, those were the days...  Program some luser's function keys, and, if 
necessary, execute them...

Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Dec 30, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
> but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

And speaking of kick-ass terminals, who else remembers chiselling emacs commands into the keyboard of an Ann Arbor Ambassador in 60x132 mode?!?  I loved that keyboard.  They could hear me pounding on it a mile down the road :-)

--lyndon

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 31 Dec 2014, at 06:36, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

If I remember they worked by talking to the framebuffer so they were happy to work with either.  By the same token they probably won't work on anything that's not a 1980s Sun framebuffer, sadly.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[arnold]

> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
find that. :-)

Arnold

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Milo Velimirovic]

It appears to be available here
http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/

On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

>> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
>> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> 
> It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> find that. :-)
> 
> Arnold
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Derrik Walker v2.0]

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> It appears to be available here
> http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> 
> On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > 
> > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> > find that. :-)
> >

I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
4.  

Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
to compile it.  

Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/

- Derrik 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Larry McVoy]

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:37:53PM -0500, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> > It appears to be available here
> > http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> > 
> > On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source
> > >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > > 
> > > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you can
> > > find that. :-)
> > >
> 
> I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
> system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
> Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
> 4.  
> 
> Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
> to compile it.  
> 
> Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-SPARCstation-LX-/201238223990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edabb9c76

Not an IPX but it will sun sunos 4.x if I recall correctly.

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

I have at least one of these and some other old SPARCstations, keyboards,
mice, etc. here that could use a good home if you (or others on list) want
'em to run SunOS 4.1.3 or somesuch.  I think I have install media for that
OS as well.

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:37:53PM -0500, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> > On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 09:37 -0600, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> > > It appears to be available here
> > > http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.misc/volume4/
> > >
> > > On Dec 31, 2014, at 9:31 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in
> source
> > > >> code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.
> > > >
> > > > It appears to have been posted in comp.sources.misc/volume4 if you
> can
> > > > find that. :-)
> > > >
> >
> > I just happen to have all these usenet posts archived on my local
> > system.  I found the program in question, and it appears to require a
> > Sun box, and judging by the date, a Sun 3 or early Sparc running Sun OS
> > 4.
> >
> > Since my Linux box doesn't have the 'suntools' headers, I wont even try
> > to compile it.
> >
> > Now, if only I still had that IPX I use to have :-/
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-SPARCstation-LX-/201238223990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edabb9c76
>
> Not an IPX but it will sun sunos 4.x if I recall correctly.
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

I loved my Ambassador!  Still have one.  I remember performing the 
"twisted mode" mod to be able to run it in 60x80 portrait mode, before 
Ann Arbor released a portrait product.

http://stargatemuseum.org/html/cubix_and_dumb_terminal.html

Forgive me if I didn't do a lot of EMACS on it, though.  :)

     Mary Ann

On 12/30/2014 10:36 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> And speaking of kick-ass terminals, who else remembers chiselling 
> emacs commands into the keyboard of an Ann Arbor Ambassador in 60x132 
> mode?!? I loved that keyboard. They could hear me pounding on it a 
> mile down the road :-) --lyndon 

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

Jake - you have lots of help from others and using curses(3) is definitely
the right way to program.

But to answer your specific question about printf(string), according to
Chapter 3 (Programmer's Info) of my old VT-100 user's guide, I think what
is you are doing wrong is that "\033c" is not the ANSI clear to end of
screen command.

When I saw your message on my iPhone last night, the cache said - wait that
can't be correct.   But I could not remember why.   So I had to wait until
I got back home today to look in my basement.

As I suspected, it's not an ANSI sequence.  So are you running in VT-100
(ANSI) mode or VT52 mode?  I ask because it is close to the VT52 cursor
right command which is actually:  "\033C"  but I do not remember is case
mattered.

In VT52 mode you need to send the terminal:  "\033H\033J" to clear the
screen.

In ANSI mode, it becomes:  "\033[1;1\033[0J"

A few things to remember:
1.) Clear takes the current cursor position and clears from there to end of
X (where X depends on mode, and type of clear).  So you need to move the
cursor to home position (aka 1,1).

2.) VT-100's did not implement the full ANSI spec like Ann Arbor, Heathkit,
Wyse etc.  So there are a number of things that those terminals did
better.  A really good reason to you curses(3) because all the knowledge is
keep in the termcap and as a programmer you don't need to worry about it.

3.) I saw sites were VT52 mode was sometimes preferred because it was good
enough for most editing, and needed fewer chars to do manipulation.  On
slow serial lines, this sometimes was helpful.  That said, give me an AAA
any day.  Like others, I still miss that terminal. :-)

Clem

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>
> thx
> jake
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Erik E. Fair]

The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
manually entered.

	Erik <fair at netbsd.org>

[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's likely
why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and probably
why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)

Clem

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:

> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
> manually entered.
>
>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is currently
just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 hardware in various
states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely has a burned out power
supply and I haven't been able to fix it.

I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses clear,
but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things down.  So I'm
now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple escape string that
works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and just printf it.


On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's likely
> why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and probably
> why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>
> Clem
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
>> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>> manually entered.
>>
>>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>>
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Mary Ann Horton]

Jacob,

Are you just clearing the screen in an otherwise scroll-oriented 
program, or are you doing graphics by clearing and repainting a similar 
screen when something changes?

The termcap "cl" method is perfect for the former, but curses is better 
suited for the latter.

     Mary Ann

On 12/31/2014 02:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is 
> currently just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 
> hardware in various states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely 
> has a burned out power supply and I haven't been able to fix it.
>
> I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses 
> clear, but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things 
> down.  So I'm now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple 
> escape string that works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and 
> just printf it.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com 
> <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI,
>     that's likely why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100
>     programmers manual and probably why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>
>     Clem
>
>     On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair
>     <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org <mailto:fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>> wrote:
>
>         The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state"
>         which
>         happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>         frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>         manually entered.
>
>                 Erik <fair at netbsd.org <mailto:fair at netbsd.org>>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Jacob Ritorto]

Well, it's just me teaching my kid recursion in c, so it's kind of informal
and I'm just clearing the screen to repaint it a second later with
changes.  It's too bad that curses adds so much overhead.  I'll have to
compare the resultant a.outs to confirm exactly how much..  Not that it
matters for a play program, really, more of a curiosity..

Thanks again Mary Ann!

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

>  Jacob,
>
> Are you just clearing the screen in an otherwise scroll-oriented program,
> or are you doing graphics by clearing and repainting a similar screen when
> something changes?
>
> The termcap "cl" method is perfect for the former, but curses is better
> suited for the latter.
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
> On 12/31/2014 02:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>
>  I'm actually running an old CIT-101 from c.itoh.  The pdp11 is currently
> just simh on a raspberry pi, but I have a lot of pdp11 hardware in various
> states of disrepair.  my 11/73 ran 2.11bsd nicely has a burned out power
> supply and I haven't been able to fix it.
>
>  I checked out the curses man page in 2.11 and tried to use curses clear,
> but it really does tack on a lot of overhead & slows things down.  So I'm
> now tempted to just cheat, keep it simple, find a simple escape string that
> works on real vt100s as well as xterms, etc. and just printf it.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>>  Ah - that makes sense,  and since VT-100 are not fully ANSI, that's
>> likely why it's not listed in my circa 1976 VT-100 programmers manual and
>> probably why it does not work for Jacob. ;-)
>>
>>  Clem
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The sequence ESC-c is ANSI X3.64 for "reset to initial state" which
>>> happens to clear the screen, among other things. I still use it
>>> frequently to reset Mac OS X "Terminal" windows to a sane state,
>>> manually entered.
>>>
>>>         Erik <fair at netbsd.org>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing listTUHS at minnie.tuhs.orghttps://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed

[Clem Cole]

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On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 5:30 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> CIT-101 from c.itoh

​I remember those, but I do not have a manual for it.
I reasonable guess is they tried to clone the VT-100 which means its ANSI
sequences but not full ANSI and lots of strangeness - Thank you to my old
friend Tom Kent who had a lot to do with the original FW and the keyboard.
In his defense, the ANSI sequences were not yet a standard when then
started that project.   So they took what they knew was going to be there,
add a ton of DEC specific stuff and the result is history.

BTW: If you even wanted to know why the original Masscomp keyboard worked
as it did, was because Tom had the "second systems effect" when he did the
MC-500  and I always tease him about it all the time - although unlike the
MC-500 you could not use the VT-100 as a weapon ;-)​

Anyway - I just looked in the original VT-100 programmer guide again and
could not find the sequence "\033c" defined in it.  So I'm >>guessing<< Tom
and team did not implement it, and thus c.itoh did not either when they
cloned it.
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