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From: jon@fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Subject: [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 20:55:03 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <201709130355.v8D3t3Li032157@darkstar.fourwinds.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exY+PmBpQN6JW2xxW=eFP6ag9XxBLKm16JRNYFsreFzvL5g@mail.gmail.com>

ron minnich writes:
> 
> I don't disagree. I just think the knowledge of all that is lost, the same
> way so much knowledge of unix is lost. That's why we have things like
> systemd.

It's amusing to me how many of the topics on this list I've included in
my book in process because I feel that they're important.

I look at the systemd problem slightly differently.  In short, I was
coming into work one night at BTL when Ken was heading out the door for
his sabbatical at UCB with a stack of mag tapes under his arm.  I see
that as a pivotal moment in computer history.  Students could learn from
an actual real computer system; they had source code access.  And, they
had the ability to modify and contribute to that code.  A lot of students
from that era went out to do great things.  Years later, the lower cost
of PCs resulted in students using them for their work.  Not only was MS-DOS
not as advanced a system as UNIX, but source code access was gone.  Students
had to learn from contrived projects, and didn't have the ability to play
with the guts of the operating system that they were using.  While there are
exceptions, I don't feel like students from the PC era are nearly as good.
While Linux has sort of brought us back to the golden age of source access
many of the people working on it are from the PC era and are trying to wedge
their Microsoft-nonsensibilities into Linux.  That's where things like
systemd come from.

Jon


  reply	other threads:[~2017-09-13  3:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 208+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-09-08 20:54 [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Dave Horsfall
2017-09-08 21:04 ` Noel Chiappa
2017-09-08 21:09   ` Michael Kjörling
2017-09-09  1:16     ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-09  1:30       ` [TUHS] File-as-record (was: Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie!) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2017-09-09  1:43         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-09  1:50         ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-09 13:59           ` [TUHS] File-as-record Arthur Krewat
2017-09-11 17:26         ` [TUHS] File-as-record (was: Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie!) Paul Winalski
2017-09-09  4:34       ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Steve Johnson
2017-09-09 13:04         ` William Cheswick
2017-09-09 17:26           ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 17:49           ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-09 19:40             ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 20:33           ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-09 21:56             ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-10  1:27               ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-11 16:20             ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-09 15:55         ` Clem Cole
2017-09-08 22:28   ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-09 11:04     ` Michael Kjörling
2017-09-09 11:19       ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-08 21:05 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-08 21:14 ` William Pechter
2017-09-08 22:13   ` Angus Robinson
2017-09-08 23:11     ` William Pechter
2017-09-09  5:13       ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-09 15:41         ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-09  4:20   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-11 16:30   ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-11 16:49     ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-11 17:37       ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-11 23:09       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12  7:38         ` arnold
2017-09-12 14:12           ` Ronald Natalie
2017-09-12 14:51             ` Toby Thain
2017-09-12 15:33             ` arnold
2017-09-12 15:35           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 16:57             ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 17:04             ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-12 17:07               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 22:11               ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 22:58                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-12 23:22                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 23:44                     ` Chris Torek
2017-09-12 23:41                 ` Adam Sampson
2017-09-13  0:14                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13 16:38                     ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Christian Groessler
2017-09-13 19:10                       ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-13 19:13                         ` Henry Bent
2017-09-19  0:44                       ` Random832
2017-09-19 10:30                         ` Nigel Williams
2017-09-19 14:05                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19 15:16                             ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 15:39                               ` [TUHS] old X versions Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 18:23                                 ` Nemo
2017-09-19 18:32                                   ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 18:32                                   ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 18:34                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19 18:43                                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-19 19:19                                       ` Stephen Kitt
2017-09-19 15:40                               ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Clem Cole
2017-09-19 17:01                               ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-19 17:15                                 ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 18:56                                   ` Derek Fawcus
2017-09-19 19:22                                     ` [TUHS] old X versions Arthur Krewat
2017-09-19 20:15                                     ` [TUHS] old X versions (was:X and NeWS history) Gregg Levine
2017-09-19 18:30                                 ` Nemo
2017-09-19 23:40                               ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-19 23:46                                 ` [TUHS] old X versions Grant Taylor
2017-09-20  0:06                                   ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-13  0:29                 ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Bakul Shah
2017-09-13  0:52                   ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  0:54                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-13  0:56                       ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  0:57                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-13  2:06                         ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-13  3:34                           ` ron minnich
2017-09-13  3:55                             ` Jon Steinhart [this message]
2017-09-13 15:16                               ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-13 15:42                                 ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) [ really systemd, student access to real code ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  1:42                     ` [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Arthur Krewat
2017-09-13  2:27                       ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13 16:14                     ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-13  0:56                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  1:34                     ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-13  2:43                     ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13  3:01                       ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13  3:25                         ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-13  3:27                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-13 15:09                 ` Tony Finch
2017-09-13 15:19                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-12 23:33               ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Dave Horsfall
2017-09-12 20:15             ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-13  2:23               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14  0:53                 ` Nemo
2017-09-14  1:18                   ` Henry Bent
2017-09-14  3:15                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14  9:35                   ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 11:11                     ` arnold
2017-09-14 12:13                       ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 12:50                         ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-14 13:27                           ` Rico Pajarola
2017-09-14 14:30                             ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-14 13:21                       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-14 19:44                         ` arnold
2017-09-14 20:22                           ` [TUHS] Tools and building: libtool, autoconf, etc. [ trying to have a relevant subject line ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14 20:32                             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 21:00                               ` Chris Torek
2017-09-14 21:03                                 ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 22:26                                   ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-16  3:34                                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  4:16                                   ` Warner Losh
2017-09-16  5:08                                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-16  3:33                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14 20:41                             ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-14 21:00                               ` Noel Hunt
2017-09-15 17:42                           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really sun vs dec/apollo --> X and NeWS ] Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-14 20:31                         ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-15  3:16                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-15  3:33                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-15  8:32                       ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-15 12:42                     ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-15 18:20                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-15 18:37                       ` Paul Winalski
2017-09-13  7:30               ` arnold
2017-09-13 13:35                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-13 23:55                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-14  0:18                     ` Henry Bent
2017-09-14  2:10                       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-14 19:37                       ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-14 19:54                         ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 20:50                           ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-14 21:00                             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 20:11                         ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-14 20:26                           ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-19  0:52                         ` Random832
2017-09-19  2:50                           ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19  2:56                             ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-19  3:37                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19  6:52                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2017-09-19  7:22                             ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-19 13:22                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 13:53                             ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-19 13:56                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 17:56                                 ` Random832
2017-09-19 18:31                                   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-19 18:34                                     ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 19:31                                   ` Lawrence Stewart
2017-09-20  3:13                                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-23 22:24                                     ` Ralph Corderoy
2017-09-19 14:32                             ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 14:42                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-19 15:12                                 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-19 18:03                                 ` Random832
2017-09-10  9:44 ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! arnold
2017-09-13 23:22   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-14 16:11     ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-14 16:15       ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 19:30         ` Theodore Ts'o
2017-09-14 19:52           ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-14 22:03             ` Christian Groessler
2017-09-14 22:39               ` Erik Berls
2017-09-14 22:52                 ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 23:04                   ` Warner Losh
2017-09-14 23:14                     ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-15 19:01                     ` Chris Torek
2017-09-15 19:50                       ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2017-09-15 19:56                         ` ron minnich
2017-09-15 20:34                         ` Chris Torek
2017-09-14 23:06                   ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-15  0:47                     ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 19:39         ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-14 20:09           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! [ really Pottering vs UNIX ] Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14 21:35           ` [TUHS] Happy birthday, Dennis Ritchie! Theodore Ts'o
2017-09-15  1:40             ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-15 14:04               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  3:40             ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-16  7:45               ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-16 12:59               ` Ron Natalie
2017-09-16 18:19                 ` Andy Kosela
2017-09-17 18:37                 ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-18 15:11                   ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-16 19:20               ` arnold
2017-09-17  1:43                 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-17  1:55                   ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-17  2:14                     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17  2:18                       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-17 14:27                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17  5:13                     ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-17  5:19                   ` arnold
2017-09-17 18:49                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-17 18:57                       ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-17 19:08                         ` Warner Losh
2017-09-17 19:33                           ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-17 19:22                         ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-17 18:43                   ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-18  0:12                     ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-18  0:51                       ` Clem Cole
2017-09-17 18:25               ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-13 15:17 [TUHS] X and NeWS history (long) Richard Tobin
2017-09-13 16:01 ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-14  1:08   ` Nemo
2017-09-14  3:14 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-13 18:54 Nelson H. F. Beebe
2017-09-13 21:27 ` ron minnich
2017-09-14 12:30 Richard Tobin
2017-09-14 15:12 ` Warner Losh

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