* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) @ 2017-10-17 0:44 Noel Chiappa 2017-10-17 2:00 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Noel Chiappa @ 2017-10-17 0:44 UTC (permalink / raw) > From: Larry McVoy > I was told, by someone that I don't remember, that uwisc was the 11th > node on the net. ... If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know. There's a copy of the July '77 revision of the HOSTS.TXT file as an appendix here: http://www.walden-family.com/dave/archive/bbn-tip-man.txt The IMPs are numbered in order of deployment; so UCLA is #1, SRI is #2, Utah is #4, BBN is #5, etc. I don't see Wisconsin in the list at all. Maybe the person meant CSNET? Noel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-17 0:44 ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) Noel Chiappa @ 2017-10-17 2:00 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-10-17 2:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 08:44:02PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Larry McVoy > > > I was told, by someone that I don't remember, that uwisc was the 11th > > node on the net. ... If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know. > > There's a copy of the July '77 revision of the HOSTS.TXT file as an appendix > here: > > http://www.walden-family.com/dave/archive/bbn-tip-man.txt > > The IMPs are numbered in order of deployment; so UCLA is #1, SRI is #2, Utah > is #4, BBN is #5, etc. > > I don't see Wisconsin in the list at all. Maybe the person meant CSNET? I dunno. That 1985 map has uwisc in there and I know from being there that they were in because they were doing a lot of useful work, there was the uwisc-bsd+NFS release, there was the uwisc bsd port to the IBM rt, I watched Joe Moran do a port of BSD to a 68K in a couple of days (literally, he stayed up for 2 days and got it to work), uwisc was the shit back in the day. I'm not bragging because of me, I was nobody, but a lot of somebodies came out of uwisc. Most of them went to Sun. Joe went on to do the SunOS 4.x VM system which to this day I have not seen a better one. So maybe they weren't the 11th IMP on the net. I dunno, I do know that someone told me that. I do know that prior to the net there was uucp and ....!uwisc was a useful prefix like ...!rutgers and ...!ucbvax. I think they were in the mix. 11th? Dunno, just what I've been told. --lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) @ 2017-10-17 13:01 Noel Chiappa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Noel Chiappa @ 2017-10-17 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw) > From: Grant Taylor > Does anyone know of a good place to discuss networking history, routing, > email, dns, etc. I'd like to avoid getting too far off topic for TUHS. You could try the "Internet History mailing list": http://www.postel.org/internet-history/ which covers all of networking, including pre-Internet stuff. Noel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) @ 2017-10-17 12:57 Noel Chiappa 2017-10-17 14:32 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Noel Chiappa @ 2017-10-17 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw) > From: Larry McVoy >>> I was told, by someone that I don't remember, that uwisc was the 11th >>> node on the net. ... If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know. > I dunno. I don't have any axe to grind here. I don't care if they were the first, or the last. You asked "If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know", and all I'm trying to do is _accurately_ answer that. > That 1985 map has uwisc in there I have a large collection of ARPANET maps here: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html and the first one on which UWisc shows up is the October, 1981 geographical map - over ten years since the ARPANet went up (December, 1969 is the earliest map I have there). > I do know that prior to the net there was uucp Which "net" are we talking about here? ARPANET? CSNET? Internet? The UUCP network long post-dated the ARPANET - I think it was started in the late 70's, no? The earliest Internet map I have is from 1982, here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Internet_map_in_February_82.png and again UWisc is not on it. (Yes, I know it's on Wikipedia, but I'm the one who uploaded it, so I can verify it.) CSNET I don't know much about, that may have been what the comment referred to. Wikipedia (for what little we can trust it) says "By 1981, three sites were connected: University of Delaware, Princeton University, and Purdue University"; since Lawrence Landweber at UWis was the main driver of CSNET, I doubt it would have been far behind. Noel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-17 12:57 Noel Chiappa @ 2017-10-17 14:32 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-10-17 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 08:57:15AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Larry McVoy > > >>> I was told, by someone that I don't remember, that uwisc was the 11th > >>> node on the net. ... If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know. > > > I dunno. > > I don't have any axe to grind here. I don't care if they were the first, or > the last. You asked "If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know", > and all I'm trying to do is _accurately_ answer that. > > > > That 1985 map has uwisc in there > > I have a large collection of ARPANET maps here: > > http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html > > and the first one on which UWisc shows up is the October, 1981 geographical > map - over ten years since the ARPANet went up (December, 1969 is the earliest > map I have there). > > Which "net" are we talking about here? ARPANET? CSNET? Internet? The UUCP network > long post-dated the ARPANET - I think it was started in the late 70's, no? > > The earliest Internet map I have is from 1982, here: > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Internet_map_in_February_82.png > > and again UWisc is not on it. (Yes, I know it's on Wikipedia, but I'm the one > who uploaded it, so I can verify it.) > > > CSNET I don't know much about, that may have been what the comment referred > to. > > Wikipedia (for what little we can trust it) says "By 1981, three sites were > connected: University of Delaware, Princeton University, and Purdue > University"; since Lawrence Landweber at UWis was the main driver of CSNET, I > doubt it would have been far behind. Yeah, I bet it was Larry Landweber who told me, so maybe it was CSNET. I sent him mail, we'll see if he replies. --lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) @ 2017-10-16 15:09 Michael-John Turner 2017-10-16 15:35 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-17 0:27 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Michael-John Turner @ 2017-10-16 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, It's not 100% on topic, but I thought this December 1985 ARPANET Information Brochure would be of interest to the list: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a164353.pdf Cheers, MJ -- Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 15:09 Michael-John Turner @ 2017-10-16 15:35 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-16 15:38 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-17 0:27 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-16 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1125 bytes --] That episode of “The Americans” sure made it seem to difficult to break into the ARPANET — they had to kill some poor dude who was in the wrong place in the wrong time. But in reality they would gladly mail you all those documents by request for a small fee. You just had to ask. And there were no passwords on the TIPs. It makes me wonder if you can really pass a polygraph test by tightening your anus. -Don https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0pIUvbyvr8 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0pIUvbyvr8> > On 16 Oct 2017, at 17:09, Michael-John Turner <mj at mjturner.net> wrote: > > Hi, > > It's not 100% on topic, but I thought this December 1985 ARPANET Information Brochure would be of interest to the list: > http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a164353.pdf > > Cheers, MJ -- > Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171016/82ea68f3/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 15:35 ` Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-16 15:38 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-16 16:09 ` Clem Cole 2017-10-17 18:33 ` Ron Natalie 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-16 15:38 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 474 bytes --] > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0> I love the way that geeky guy smugly rubs his hands together, leans back and chuckles when he say “We have our very own IMP. (Huh, huh huh, sigh.)” I would totally chuckle that way if I had my own IMP. -Don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171016/6b100535/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 15:38 ` Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-16 16:09 ` Clem Cole 2017-10-16 16:44 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-17 18:33 ` Ron Natalie 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2017-10-16 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1510 bytes --] Don't forget the cost of the IMP itself was just the beginning. The fees to 'TPC' for the 1/2 duplex 9600 serial lines in those days were very, very expensive. DARPA paid for them for each site in a large deal it had with AT&T. I don't remember where I saw it, but what sticks out in my mind for those days was that cost of a site (host) on the ARPAnet was approx $125K / year per host in an ARPA grant. Which really explains 'security.' In practice nobody was going to risk letting just anyone hack their system so much that it put the site at risk. Truth is we did not try to break in because we all had access, but if it you needed a $.5-2M PDP-10 to connect to the internet, a free IMP slot (each IMP supplied 4) and the leases on the wires. So it was just not practical to think like we do today, much less act that way. It was not so much security by obscurity, as security by practical economics. Moore's law, Ethernet and cheap processing power is what blow that up. On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Don Hopkins <don at donhopkins.com> wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0 > > > I love the way that geeky guy smugly rubs his hands together, leans back > and chuckles when he say “We have our very own IMP. (Huh, huh huh, sigh.)” > > I would totally chuckle that way if I had my own IMP. > > -Don > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171016/b545f174/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 16:09 ` Clem Cole @ 2017-10-16 16:44 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-17 0:34 ` Grant Taylor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-16 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8948 bytes --] On 16 Oct 2017, at 18:09, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: Don't forget the cost of the IMP itself was just the beginning. The fees to 'TPC' for the 1/2 duplex 9600 serial lines in those days were very, very expensive. DARPA paid for them for each site in a large deal it had with AT&T. I don't remember where I saw it, but what sticks out in my mind for those days was that cost of a site (host) on the ARPAnet was approx $125K / year per host in an ARPA grant. Which really explains 'security.' In practice nobody was going to risk letting just anyone hack their system so much that it put the site at risk. Truth is we did not try to break in because we all had access, but if it you needed a $.5-2M PDP-10 to connect to the internet, a free IMP slot (each IMP supplied 4) and the leases on the wires. So it was just not practical to think like we do today, much less act that way. It was not so much security by obscurity, as security by practical economics. Moore's law, Ethernet and cheap processing power is what blow that up. On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Don Hopkins <don at donhopkins.com <mailto:don at donhopkins.com>> wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVth6T3gMa0> I love the way that geeky guy smugly rubs his hands together, leans back and chuckles when he say “We have our very own IMP. (Huh, huh huh, sigh.)” I would totally chuckle that way if I had my own IMP. -Don My uncle worked at the German Space Operations Center, which had DATEX-P, so I asked a mailing list about how to connect with him, and got some interesting replies that give a glimpse of the topologies and costs of the time: -Don Date: 31-Oct-1986 0451 From: covert%covert.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (John R. Covert) To: don at brillig.umd.edu Subject: Re: datex-p Datex-P costs money to use. Go to any VMS system on Telenet running PSI, and send mail to PSI%26245815390037::USERNAME You'll have to find someone willing to spend a buck or two for every message you send. You had the breakdown of the address wrong: 2624 is for Germany (Germany leaves the 262 off within the country) 581 is for the town (the same as the telephone code for the major nearby town) 53900 is the site 37 is the subaddress No free service to X.25 networks, sorry. /john Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 14:13:22 EST From: rick@seismo.css.gov (Rick Adams) To: don at brillig.umd.edu Subject: Re: datex-p There is nothing magic about datex-p. Its not a network anymore than C&P telephone is a network. You keep trying to make something special out of it. Think of datex-p as MCI or ATT or SPRINT. Its just a common carrier. For about $1500/month you could arrange a tymnet/telenet link at maryland for them to call up. It would them cost the orignator of the transmission $12/hour and about $.70 per kilocharacters to connect to you. —rick Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 10:03 EST From: John C Klensin <Klensin@mit-multics.arpa> Subject: Re: datex-p To: Don Hopkins <don at brillig.umd.edu> This is going to get pretty complicated, and I'm at a disadvantage in not knowing what you know already. So, I apologize if some of the following is obvious. I'm going to try to anticipate questions and answer then as a possibly-efficient way of doing this. "... telnet to the states": Strictly speaking, no. X.25 protocols, not TCP/IP, and I think the Bundespost would have fits if someone started passing TCP/IP traffic over their network. Moreover, if anyone has a VMS VAX in the entire world that is capable of accepting an incoming X.25/X.29 call and then handling TCP/IP traffic over it, we'd love to know about it, and how they are doing it. But, I doubt it: VAX PSI could not be a more hostile environment to this sort of thing if they had designed it with that in mind, and one cannot just write and install X.29 software -- it has to be certified by the network vendors. GTE Telenet might do so, Tymnet might, but I haven't heard of either of them being asked. And you would also need to certify the outgoing TCP/IP over X.25 package at the far end, and the Deutschebundespost? Well, "never" somewhat understates the situation. How about using a datex-p connection to connect to a machine in the US as a remote user? Certainly feasible. This is what is called in the trade an X.3 -> X.25 -> X.3 or X.29 connection, should you need to know. All you need is a) a machine at this end with incoming Tymnet or Telenet access (or maybe a few other things, but I don't know). Some universities have them, some don't, some commercial firms have them, some don't, etc. The minimum charge for those connections is circa $10K per month, $5K to some educational sites, so they are not real common in places that have not discovered a large need. b) an account at that end, with Datex-P, that has international access authorization. That costs extra, incidentally. c) The machine address here (a long string of numbers, the first four of which identify the network). d) And, of course, an account on the machine here, since one will be logging into it. What can you do once you get here? Anything that the local user can do, no more, no less. Can files be transferred over the VAX/PSI (X.3) ->X.25->X.29 link? Yep. Either things like "go into an editor at the remote and pretend someone is typing very fast" or things like kermit work. The latter very slowly because of the long packet-acknowledgement delays. How about mail over that connection? Not unless you invent some protocols such as the ones MAILNET uses (this relies that you have a daemon at the far end that you can take over and that the remote system knows about) or cook something up yourself. You are basically logged into the remote machine and using yours transparently, or you are logged into you machine and not the remote. And how are these things tariffed? Ignoring the fact that the charges are for kilopackets and connect time, rather than connect time and distance, just like long-distance voice phone: Either originator pays or remote machine pays ("collect call") service is possible. Sites that are willing to accept collect calls essentially sign up in advance, making it more like an in-WATS service - metered, but invisible to the caller. The norm in the US is collect call service, although the major packet switched networks all support login and password services for users who need to have accounts and pay the charges themselves (presumably because they are dealing with remote sites who refuse "collect" incoming calls). Internationally, there are three separate sets of charges, each of which can be charged to either the originator or the receiver (at least in principle). Assuming that a call originates in Germany and is bound for Maryland... a) Kilopacket and connect time charges for connecting to Datex-P. This is the same charge that would be incurred if you were making a local connection in Germany. For moderate use, it averages about $3/connect hour, last I checked. Datex-P does not accept any "collect" traffic at all, so you have to pay then. b) Kilopacket and connect time charges for crossing from Datex-P into a network that serves the US (the "X.75 gateway"). Here, they get you through the nose. Again, since Datex-P does not accept "collect" traffic and the originating network has to be responsible for these charges, they get passed to the Datex-P account holder. c) Kilopacket and connect time charges for connecting to the remote machine in Maryland. These charges correspond to domestic rates (typically $5 - $9 per connect hour), and are typically charged to the Maryland site (Telenet or Tymnet send them a bill at the end of the month). If the Maryland site declines to accept the collect charge, they can be charged to the Datex-P account also, just like the voice phone. The other way works the same way except that, since Datex-P refuses any collect traffic, ALL charges are assessed to the account at the US end. It tends to be a bit cheaper to call from Europe to the US than vice versa (backwards from voice), but I have not reviewed the numbers since the dollar collapsed. If you can find a local GTE Telenet access number (don't know where you are, or I could look it up), dial them up, type MAIL when you see @, type INTL/ASSOCIATES when it asks for a user name, and give INTL as a password. Then track through their little menus until you find the Federal Republic of Germany -- it should give you information on tariffs, etc. (in case you wonder, those accessing instructions are public information and appear on the second page of GTE Telenet's give-away "US Access telephone numbers" brochure). that is probably about the end of my knowledge. good luck john -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171016/10394dc0/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 16:44 ` Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-17 0:34 ` Grant Taylor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor @ 2017-10-17 0:34 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 833 bytes --] On 10/16/2017 10:44 AM, Don Hopkins wrote: > My uncle worked at the German Space Operations Center, which had > DATEX-P, so I asked a mailing list about how to connect with him, and > got some interesting replies that give a glimpse of the topologies and > costs of the time: Oh my. That's intriguing and a number of new acronyms / terms that I need to look up. X.29 X.75 Does anyone know of a good place to discuss networking history, routing, email, dns, etc. I'd like to avoid getting too far off topic for TUHS. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3717 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171016/797cccc1/attachment.bin> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 15:38 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-16 16:09 ` Clem Cole @ 2017-10-17 18:33 ` Ron Natalie 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Ron Natalie @ 2017-10-17 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 898 bytes --] I love the knobs and intercom panels on the front of the IMP. I actually had my own IMP. BRL bought four IMPs and four TACs and set them up as our campus network early on. I think we were the largest single purchaser of the ACC LH/DH-11 interfaces. I had set up all the modems for the IMPs and as soon as the BBN guy would uncrate them and power them up I’d run around shoving the trunks and host connectors into them. By the end of the day I wrote my contact at BBN telling him our network was all up and running. I got a letter back explaining that it would not be possible for me to do that. This led to my new motto that I kept for a long time: I didn’t know it was impossible when I did it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171017/9321cab6/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) 2017-10-16 15:09 Michael-John Turner 2017-10-16 15:35 ` Don Hopkins @ 2017-10-17 0:27 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2017-10-17 0:27 UTC (permalink / raw) I love the picture of the nodes on the net. I was told, by someone that I don't remember, that uwisc was the 11th node on the net. I bet it was Larry Landweber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Landweber who told me that. But I don't know. If anyone can confirm or deny that I'd love to know. Either way, thanks for posting this, I think this is very on topic. On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 04:09:50PM +0100, Michael-John Turner wrote: > Hi, > > It's not 100% on topic, but I thought this December 1985 ARPANET Information > Brochure would be of interest to the list: > http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a164353.pdf > > Cheers, MJ > -- > Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-10-17 18:33 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-10-17 0:44 ARPANET Information Brochure (December 1985) Noel Chiappa 2017-10-17 2:00 ` Larry McVoy -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2017-10-17 13:01 Noel Chiappa 2017-10-17 12:57 Noel Chiappa 2017-10-17 14:32 ` Larry McVoy 2017-10-16 15:09 Michael-John Turner 2017-10-16 15:35 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-16 15:38 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-16 16:09 ` Clem Cole 2017-10-16 16:44 ` Don Hopkins 2017-10-17 0:34 ` Grant Taylor 2017-10-17 18:33 ` Ron Natalie 2017-10-17 0:27 ` Larry McVoy
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