[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Doug McIlroy]

>Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly coloured
"ls" output? 

Syntax coloring, of which IDE's seem to be enamored, always
looks to me like a ransom note. For folks who like colorized
text, Writers Workbench had a tool that can be harnessed to
do a bang-up job of syntax colorizing for English: "parts"
did a remarkable job of inferring parts of spechc in running
text.

Doug

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi,

Pete Turnbull wrote:
> and set MANPAGER="less -X" so as not to disappear manpages.

(This is to stop the terminal switching between its two screens so the
useful bit of the man page is hidden from view when you quit, even
though you then want to type based on its content.)

For vim, `set t_ti= t_te=' overrides the terminal's definition.
Or, have a ~/.terminfo/... compiled from the system's default but with
those entries blanked.  Then all commands are "fixed".

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Michael Kjörling]

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On 17 Nov 2017 10:38 +0800, from ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson):
> although why find . -type d -maxdepth 1 isn't being used is beyond me.

(In normal usage) unless you want your dot-directories as well,
there's always good ol' \ls -1d */, or even echo */ if you can live
with the entries being all on one line separated by just one space.
Works nicely in an interactive shell, but may be slightly too
unreliable for a script (in GNU bash, the exact behavior depends on
the globbing options such as dotglob; other shells might act
differently based on state too, I just am not too familiar with them).

Using \ls above because some people (including myself) already have
their ls aliased to a ls command that includes -F, which looks ugly
when used with -d */. If you aren't one of them, then maybe you don't
need the backslash.

Using echo has the bonus that it's very often built in to the shell,
so no external invocation is required.

I don't think I'd call find minimalistic anything. :-) Modern ls is
pretty bloated too (surprisingly enough, on my system, the binary for
find is only about twice the size of the binary for ls; 233,968 and
114,032 bytes, respectively, but that's not counting any libraries
they pull in dynamically), but ls is probably in the disk cache
already; echo's nice and lean, though...

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
                 “People who think they know everything really annoy
                 those of us who know we don’t.” (Bjarne Stroustrup)

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Andy Kosela]

On Friday, November 17, 2017, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 16, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > If you happen to be on Red Hat derived Linux, the easiest way to turn
> off all this crap is to rename /etc/profile to something like
> /etc/profile.dist and then populate your own startup scripts.
>
> Better is to install a .profile that begins with 'unalias -a'.  That seems
> to clean out all the cruft and leave you with a clean slate to build from.
>
> I've just learned to install my own .profile and .env files, and ignore
> the crap foisted on me by ... whatever ...


Why wasting all the cycles for sourcing all this crap in the first place?
I know we have faster computers now, but still I do not want to load
something that is completely unnecessary, just so I can remove it later
with 'unalias'.

IMHO it is much cleaner to remove/rename all this, and then start with your
own scripts.

I happen to still work a lot on hardware monochrome terminals connected
via serial -- it is noticably slower if color information is included in
the output...

I always hated color on UNIX.  Monochrome green/amber/white is perfectly
fine to me.

--Andy
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> On 2017-11-17 10:38, George Michaelson wrote:
>
>> Actually no, I still hate colour LS. I like ls -F because the implied
>> extra information can be semantically extracted with a grep, although
>> why find . -type d -maxdepth 1 isn't being used is beyond me.
>
> Colorized ls can show you other things.  For example:
>
> * setuid/setgid files
> * broken symlinks
>
> ls -F can't do these.
>
> Myself, I like ls itself to be colourless, but I do have an alias "cls"
> and use it often.
>
>

Overall I guess it's more of a matter of, well, do you want Unix or do you 
want GNU?  On a desktop, I tend to find the GNU extensions useful.  On a 
server, I think I want lean and mean, minimalist, and more of a pure Unix 
environment.

-uso.

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-11-17 10:38, George Michaelson wrote:

> Actually no, I still hate colour LS. I like ls -F because the implied
> extra information can be semantically extracted with a grep, although
> why find . -type d -maxdepth 1 isn't being used is beyond me.

Colorized ls can show you other things.  For example:

* setuid/setgid files
* broken symlinks

ls -F can't do these.

Myself, I like ls itself to be colourless, but I do have an alias "cls"
and use it often.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet, fetch the TXT record for the domain.

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On Nov 16, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:
> 
> If you happen to be on Red Hat derived Linux, the easiest way to turn off all this crap is to rename /etc/profile to something like /etc/profile.dist and then populate your own startup scripts.

Better is to install a .profile that begins with 'unalias -a'.  That seems to clean out all the cruft and leave you with a clean slate to build from.

I've just learned to install my own .profile and .env files, and ignore the crap foisted on me by ... whatever ...

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[George Michaelson]

I THINK that I don't like ls colours, but I have to admit that since I
started trying to pay attention more, I find colour coding has some
value, for some meaning of some and no value defined.

Actually no, I still hate colour LS. I like ls -F because the implied
extra information can be semantically extracted with a grep, although
why find . -type d -maxdepth 1 isn't being used is beyond me.

de gustibus non disputandum, but on a unibus, there are also no
disputes because the bus master arbitrates

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Steve Johnson <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:
> Reminds me of a comment a seasoned co-worker came out with when looking over
> a new employee's program, filled with
> variableNamesThatRanOnAndOnForHalfALineOrMaybeLonger.  "I used to write boot
> loaders that were shorter than your variable names!"
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> "Andy Kosela" <akosela at andykosela.com>
>
> To:
> "Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org>
> Cc:
> "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> Sent:
> Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:58:59 +0100
> Subject:
> Re: [TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 16, 2017, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly
>>> coloured "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that frippery,
>>> as the contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the minimalist "F" flag
>>> works just fine.
>>
>>
>> Thanks, all; I'll just knock up a simple script that blows away the entire
>> environment and unaliases everything in sight.  I'll probably call it "orca"
>> because I have a warped sense of humour...
>>
>> Unix taught me to be minimalist; you had to be when writing a bootstrap to
>> fit into 512 bytes...
>>
>
> If you happen to be on Red Hat derived Linux, the easiest way to turn off
> all this crap is to rename /etc/profile to something like /etc/profile.dist
> and then populate your own startup scripts.
>
> For a minimalist prompt I just use:
>
>   export PS1='\h \$ '
>
> --Andy
>
>

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Steve Johnson]

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Reminds me of a comment a seasoned co-worker came out with when
looking over a new employee's program, filled with
variableNamesThatRanOnAndOnForHalfALineOrMaybeLonger.  "I used to
write boot loaders that were shorter than your variable names!"

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Kosela" <akosela@andykosela.com>
To:"Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org>
Cc:"The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent:Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:58:59 +0100
Subject:Re: [TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

On Thursday, November 16, 2017, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org [1]>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:

 Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly
coloured "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that
frippery, as the contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the
minimalist "F" flag works just fine.

 Thanks, all; I'll just knock up a simple script that blows away the
entire environment and unaliases everything in sight.  I'll probably
call it "orca" because I have a warped sense of humour...

 Unix taught me to be minimalist; you had to be when writing a
bootstrap to fit into 512 bytes...

If you happen to be on Red Hat derived Linux, the easiest way to turn
off all this crap is to rename /etc/profile to something like
/etc/profile.dist and then populate your own startup scripts.

For a minimalist prompt I just use:

  export PS1='h $ '

--Andy

  

Links:
------
[1] mailto:dave at horsfall.org

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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Thursday, 16 November 2017 at 15:34:30 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
>
>> `:noh' turns off the highlighting of the current matches.
>> They start again on the next search, e.g. `n'.
>> In less(1), it's `Esc u'.
>
> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly
> coloured "ls" output?

Certainly not.  But I don't think it's all Linux.  I've summarized how
to fix this and other annoyance in my Linux HOWTO page:
http://www.lemis.com/grog/HOWTO/linux-setup.php

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Andy Kosela]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly coloured
>> "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that frippery, as the
>> contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the minimalist "F" flag works
>> just fine.
>>
>
> Thanks, all; I'll just knock up a simple script that blows away the entire
> environment and unaliases everything in sight.  I'll probably call it
> "orca" because I have a warped sense of humour...
>
> Unix taught me to be minimalist; you had to be when writing a bootstrap to
> fit into 512 bytes...
>
>
If you happen to be on Red Hat derived Linux, the easiest way to turn off
all this crap is to rename /etc/profile to something like /etc/profile.dist
and then populate your own startup scripts.

For a minimalist prompt I just use:

  export PS1='\h \$ '

--Andy
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly 
> coloured "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that 
> frippery, as the contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the 
> minimalist "F" flag works just fine.

Thanks, all; I'll just knock up a simple script that blows away the entire 
environment and unaliases everything in sight.  I'll probably call it 
"orca" because I have a warped sense of humour...

Unix taught me to be minimalist; you had to be when writing a bootstrap to 
fit into 512 bytes...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[arnold]

Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly coloured 
> "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that frippery, as the 
> contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the minimalist "F" flag works 
> just fine.

I *think* that's because some global file does something like

	alias ls='ls --colors'

You can verify with

	type ls

Try running

	unalias ls

and see if that helps.

Arnold

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Pete Turnbull]

On 16/11/2017 04:34, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly 
> coloured "ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that 
> frippery, as the contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the 
> minimalist "F" flag works just fine.

I find the colours awful, and have that stupidity turned off, along with 
the coloured prompt, the ridiculously long path in the prompt, and set 
MANPAGER="less -X" so as not to disappear manpages.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Jim Capp]

You are not the only one !!! 


From: "Dave Horsfall" <dave@horsfall.org> 
To: "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs at tuhs.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 11:34:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix 

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Ralph Corderoy wrote: 

> `:noh' turns off the highlighting of the current matches. 
> They start again on the next search, e.g. `n'. 
> In less(1), it's `Esc u'. 

Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly coloured 
"ls" output? I can never remember how to turn off that frippery, as the 
contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the minimalist "F" flag works 
just fine. 

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer." 
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

> `:noh' turns off the highlighting of the current matches.
> They start again on the next search, e.g. `n'.
> In less(1), it's `Esc u'.

Speaking of which, am I the only one annoyed by Penguin/OS' silly coloured 
"ls" output?  I can never remember how to turn off that frippery, as the 
contrast is particularly hard on my eyes; the minimalist "F" flag works 
just fine.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Warner Losh]

Speaking of TECO, this is from a wikipedia article on it. Presented w/o
comment...

run TECO
*GZ0J\UNQN"E 20UN '
BUH BUV HK
QN< J BUQ QN*10/3UI
QI< \ +2*10+(QQ*QI)UA
B L K QI*2-1UJ QA/QJUQ
QA-(QQ*QJ)-2\ 10 at I// -1%I >
QQ/10UT QH+QT+48UW QW-58"E 48UW %V ' QV"N QV^T '
QWUV QQ-(QT*10)UH >
QV^T @^A/
/HKEX$$
31415926535897932384


On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> wrote:

> On 11/15/2017 05:29 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>
>> " Map normal mode ^L to :noh to turn of hilighting of the most recent
>> search.
>> nnoremap <C-L> :noh<CR><C-L>
>>
>
> I hit send too soon.
>
> Credit goes to @Gumnos for the idea.
>
> I also like the fact that ^L causes screen redraw, so double duty.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Grant Taylor]

On 11/15/2017 05:29 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> " Map normal mode ^L to :noh to turn of hilighting of the most recent 
> search.
> nnoremap <C-L> :noh<CR><C-L>

I hit send too soon.

Credit goes to @Gumnos for the idea.

I also like the fact that ^L causes screen redraw, so double duty.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Grant Taylor]

On 11/15/2017 01:25 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> I find myself having to search for a nonexistent string just to get rid 
> of it's highlighting of a search string.

" Map normal mode ^L to :noh to turn of hilighting of the most recent 
search.
nnoremap <C-L> :noh<CR><C-L>



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Arthur,

> I'm not sure I like vim's coloring, actually. I find myself having to
> search for a nonexistent string just to get rid of it's highlighting

`:noh' turns off the highlighting of the current matches.
They start again on the next search, e.g. `n'.
In less(1), it's `Esc u'.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Arthur Krewat]

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It's always interesting how parallel development happens with certain 
things.

I certainly had no exposure to EMACS at the time I came up with the 
idea, nor the rest of this community you describe.

I'm not sure I like vim's coloring, actually. I find myself having to 
search for a nonexistent string just to get rid of it's highlighting of 
a search string.

On 11/15/2017 3:19 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net 
> <mailto:krewat at kilonet.net>> wrote:
>
>
>     When did EMACS start coloring things?
>
>
> ​I'm fairly sure, Gosling EMACS could do color by '83 when we had it 
> on the Masscomp systems.​  Cantrell's Teco was a year or two later 
> always support color in some manner, because was a graphics guy at 
> Masscomp (and DEC before that).
>
> I'm dating this by, the fact I had left Berkeley by then.   PC or one 
> of the HW folks  had written a set of EMACS macro's to emulate VMS's 
> EDT for the ex-DEC HW guys which used color.   The MIT contingent was 
> all EMACS, but we switched to Zimmerman's EMACS when we hired Steve I 
> want to say in 84 or 85. I remember there was some heartache because 
> Zimmerman EMACS was very close to ITS EMACS and preferred by the 
> ex-MIT folks (unlike Gosling EMACS).   But the color stuff for EDT 
> broke and there was complaining from the HW folks.  [Andy Tannenbaum, 
> Eric Ginger and I were the die hard ed/vi folks - which in those days 
> was BW - to this day even with vim, I still rarely use colors with 
> that editor].
>

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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Clem Cole]

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On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:

>
> When did EMACS start coloring things?
>

​I'm fairly sure, Gosling EMACS could do color by '83 when we had it on the
Masscomp systems.​  Cantrell's Teco was a year or two later always support
color in some manner, because was a graphics guy at Masscomp (and DEC
before that).

I'm dating this by, the fact I had left Berkeley by then.   PC or one of
the HW folks  had written a set of EMACS macro's to emulate VMS's EDT for
the ex-DEC HW guys which used color.   The MIT contingent was all EMACS,
but we switched to Zimmerman's EMACS when we hired Steve I want to say in
84 or 85. I remember there was some heartache because Zimmerman EMACS was
very close to ITS EMACS and preferred by the ex-MIT folks (unlike Gosling
EMACS).   But the color stuff for EDT broke and there was complaining from
the HW folks.  [Andy Tannenbaum, Eric Ginger and I were the die hard ed/vi
folks - which in those days was BW - to this day even with vim, I still
rarely use colors with that editor].
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[TUHS] TECO was: Re: basic tools / Universal Unix

[Arthur Krewat]

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Suddenly I fell like I'm in a TECO support group ;)

I have my own implementations of TECO - both on UNIX and MSDOS (of all 
things). They both do colorization of structured programming, something 
that preceded EMACs colorization by a few years.

I always wondered if my released MSDOS version of TECO gave people ideas.

When did EMACS start coloring things? I started it in my TECO as of 
around 1984-1985 - it supported it in text strings, parentheses, etc. 
 From my MSDOS version, showing some MASM code:



The structured macros were inspired by Bruce Maier's structured macros 
he did for MACRO-10 on TOPS-10 in the mid to late 70's.

On 11/15/2017 2:01 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com 
> <mailto:bakul at bitblocks.com>> wrote:
>
>     Tom Almy's version,
>
>
> ​I'd forgotten Tom was a teco guy.   I'm not sure what happened too 
> it, but at some point Tom and I got the RT11 version (which was in 
> Macro-11 assembler) running in V7 @ Tektronix ​before we had vi. Tom 
> was the biggest user at that point.  I was running something Phil Karn 
> had brought to CMU from Cornell (and I took to Tektronix) called 
> 'fred' (friendly ed) which had compiled in terminal support. Fred 
> supported glass tty's; which is why I liked it even though I knew teco 
> & emacs from my 10's days.   Mark Bales came up from Berkeley later 
> that summer and brought 1BSD/2BSD with him (that's when I learned csh 
> and reprogrammed my fingers to the current rom configuration).  
> Gosling Emacs for UNIX does not show up until we started running Vaxen 
> and had the address space, so at the time it was ed, fred, vi, teco on 
> the 11s.

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