[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Ron Natalie]

I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I have
to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[arnold]

"Ron Natalie" <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I have
> to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
> You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
> pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.

I did learn vi, after having learned ed first.  I drop down to the ex
command line for major regexp-based surgery too.  I also get the amazement
from co-workers who watch me do stuff. :-)  This is particularly true
of the, er, younger coworkers (kids today ... :-) who can't manage
outside an IDE.

Arnold

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 08:17:38AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> 
> > I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I have
> > to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
> > You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
> > pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.
> 
> I did learn vi, after having learned ed first.  I drop down to the ex
> command line for major regexp-based surgery too.  I also get the amazement
> from co-workers who watch me do stuff. :-)  This is particularly true
> of the, er, younger coworkers (kids today ... :-) who can't manage
> outside an IDE.

In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"

There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Clem cole]

Yeah.  We lost that and it was a good thing.  Programming became a operation between you and your computer in the privacy of your own office. 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On May 15, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 08:17:38AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
>> "Ron Natalie" <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I have
>>> to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
>>> You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
>>> pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.
>> 
>> I did learn vi, after having learned ed first.  I drop down to the ex
>> command line for major regexp-based surgery too.  I also get the amazement
>> from co-workers who watch me do stuff. :-)  This is particularly true
>> of the, er, younger coworkers (kids today ... :-) who can't manage
>> outside an IDE.
> 
> In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
> of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
> 
> There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Warner Losh]

Lord knows I learned Unix by watching my peers type it...

In the long run that was both good and bad, though, since now all I get to
see people type are shell scripts which range from brilliant to rubbish...
The only way to know where on that spectrum things are is to read a bunch
of them... and to get burned a few times stealing the techniques that are
best described, in hindsight, as "it seemed like a good idea at the time."

Warner

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Yeah.  We lost that and it was a good thing.  Programming became a
> operation between you and your computer in the privacy of your own office.
>
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
> quite.
>
> > On May 15, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 08:17:38AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> >> "Ron Natalie" <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I
> have
> >>> to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
> >>> You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
> >>> pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.
> >>
> >> I did learn vi, after having learned ed first.  I drop down to the ex
> >> command line for major regexp-based surgery too.  I also get the
> amazement
> >> from co-workers who watch me do stuff. :-)  This is particularly true
> >> of the, er, younger coworkers (kids today ... :-) who can't manage
> >> outside an IDE.
> >
> > In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
> > of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> > and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
> >
> > There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
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[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[arnold]

> In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
> of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
>
> There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.

Indeed. But this can be taught; however, it seems that many of the
younger generation aren't interested in learning it.  As Clem noted,
losing the terminal room has had a negative impact on learning.

(Boy, are we just a bunch of old farts, or what ... :-)

Arnold

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 09:09:36AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
> > of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> > and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
> >
> > There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
> 
> Indeed. But this can be taught; however, it seems that many of the
> younger generation aren't interested in learning it.  As Clem noted,
> losing the terminal room has had a negative impact on learning.
> 
> (Boy, are we just a bunch of old farts, or what ... :-)

I'm not old, oh, wait.  And get off my lawn!  :)
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Jon Steinhart]

Larry McVoy writes:
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 09:09:36AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > > In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff outside
> > > of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> > > and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
> > >
> > > There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
> > 
> > Indeed. But this can be taught; however, it seems that many of the
> > younger generation aren't interested in learning it.  As Clem noted,
> > losing the terminal room has had a negative impact on learning.
> > 
> > (Boy, are we just a bunch of old farts, or what ... :-)
>
> I'm not old, oh, wait.  And get off my lawn!  :)

I have fond memories of the "public terminal" room that was somewhere
on the 4th or 5th floor of building 2 at Murray Hill.  Never knew who
you'd run into there.

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com> wrote:

> Larry McVoy writes:
> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 09:09:36AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > > > In fairness to them, I don't know how you learn the good stuff
> outside
> > > > of a terminal room.  I learned so much by watching the screen change
> > > > and going "WTF?  How did you do that?"
> > > >
> > > > There is only so much you can stuff into a manual.
> > >
> > > Indeed. But this can be taught; however, it seems that many of the
> > > younger generation aren't interested in learning it.  As Clem noted,
> > > losing the terminal room has had a negative impact on learning.
> > >
> > > (Boy, are we just a bunch of old farts, or what ... :-)
> >
> > I'm not old, oh, wait.  And get off my lawn!  :)
>
> I have fond memories of the "public terminal" room that was somewhere
> on the 4th or 5th floor of building 2 at Murray Hill.  Never knew who
> you'd run into there.
>

Even at conferences, the hacking lounges provide only the barest flavor of
what's going on here. Though I still see the cool thing I want to use, it's
often painful to glance over people's shoulders... Some code can't be
unseen :)

Warner
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[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Dave Horsfall]

On Tue, 15 May 2018, Larry McVoy wrote:

>> (Boy, are we just a bunch of old farts, or what ... :-)
>
> I'm not old, oh, wait.  And get off my lawn!  :)

Well, I turned 65.5 the other day, and am now looking forward to my first 
Age Pension payment; does that make me old?

As for my lawn, I feed the magpies on it every morning :-)  I buy meat 
especially for them (I'm not much of a carnivore myself, but I do like the 
occasional snag).

-- Dave

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Theodore Y. Ts'o]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 08:11:48AM -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:
> I never really learned VI.   I can stumbled through it in ex mode if I have
> to.   If there's no EMACS on the UNIX system I'm using, I use ed.
> You get real good at regular expressions.    Some of my employees were
> pretty amazed at how fast I could make code changes with just ed.

/bin/ed's commands are mostly the same as the line editing tools that
Dec's PDP-8's 4k disk monitor system, PDP-15 backround/foreground
monitor, and the RT-11's editor.  I learned it on my own, from the
manuals only --- and when you are using an teletype, you have a *huge*
amount of incentive to learn all of the tricks you can.

So my choice of editors largely follows Ron; I never really learned
VI, so it's Emacs or ed.  And if you're on a ghastly slow
internet-on-an-airplane connection, being able to use ed is a really
useful skill --- it just gives you flashbacks to using a teletype as
an interface.


       	  	       	     	    - Ted

[TUHS] Good ol' ed (Was *ROFF)

[Cág]

"ed is the standard text editor"