* [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? @ 2018-06-29 7:53 Warren Toomey 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Warren Toomey @ 2018-06-29 7:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for ken-related anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr anecdotes? I never met Dennis in person, but he was generous with his time about my interest in Unix history; and also with sharing the material he still had. Dennis was very clever, though. He would bring out a new artifact and say: well, here's what I still have of X. Pity it will never execute again, sigh. I'm sure he knew that I would take that as a challenge. Mind you, it worked, which is why we now have the first Unix kernel in C, the 'nsys' kernel, and the first two C compilers, in executable format. Any other good anecdotes? Cheers, Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 7:53 [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? Warren Toomey @ 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com 2018-06-29 12:51 ` John P. Linderman 2018-06-30 0:50 ` Steve Johnson 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall 1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: ches@Cheswick.com @ 2018-06-29 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs Dennis, do you have any recommendations on good books to use the learn C? I don’t know, I never had to learn C. -dmr Message by ches. Tappos by iPad. > On Jun 29, 2018, at 3:53 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote: > > We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for ken-related > anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr anecdotes? > > I never met Dennis in person, but he was generous with his time about my > interest in Unix history; and also with sharing the material he still had. > > Dennis was very clever, though. He would bring out a new artifact and say: > well, here's what I still have of X. Pity it will never execute again, sigh. > > I'm sure he knew that I would take that as a challenge. Mind you, it worked, > which is why we now have the first Unix kernel in C, the 'nsys' kernel, and > the first two C compilers, in executable format. > > Any other good anecdotes? > > Cheers, Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com @ 2018-06-29 12:51 ` John P. Linderman 2018-06-30 0:50 ` Steve Johnson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: John P. Linderman @ 2018-06-29 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ches@Cheswick.com; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1591 bytes --] I heard about this second hand, so anyone with first hand knowledge should feel free to correct me. When AT&T took an ill-fated plunge into chip manufacture, our chips were on the large side. Dennis noted that "When Intel spoils a wafer, they turn the chips into tie-tacks. When we spoil a wafer, we turn the chips into belt buckles". This so infuriated the VP in charge of manufacture that he wanted "this dmr guy" fired. Needless to say, that didn't happen. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:53 AM, ches@Cheswick.com <ches@cheswick.com> wrote: > Dennis, do you have any recommendations on good books to use the learn C? > > I don’t know, I never had to learn C. -dmr > > Message by ches. Tappos by iPad. > > > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 3:53 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote: > > > > We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for > ken-related > > anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr anecdotes? > > > > I never met Dennis in person, but he was generous with his time about my > > interest in Unix history; and also with sharing the material he still > had. > > > > Dennis was very clever, though. He would bring out a new artifact and > say: > > well, here's what I still have of X. Pity it will never execute again, > sigh. > > > > I'm sure he knew that I would take that as a challenge. Mind you, it > worked, > > which is why we now have the first Unix kernel in C, the 'nsys' kernel, > and > > the first two C compilers, in executable format. > > > > Any other good anecdotes? > > > > Cheers, Warren > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2278 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com 2018-06-29 12:51 ` John P. Linderman @ 2018-06-30 0:50 ` Steve Johnson 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Steve Johnson @ 2018-06-30 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ches@Cheswick.com, Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3326 bytes --] That so sounds like Dennis! I can add a couple of other things about Dennis, outside of work. A group of us used to go into New York from time to time to take in a concert, and Dennis was often one of the group. One time in the dead of winter, we went to an Early Music concert in a cold drafty church in winter--it was part of a series called "Music before 1620". The musicians were almost unable to get their instruments to stay in tune, and the whole thing was kind of train wreck. On the way back, Dennis said "It's clear that pitch was invented sometime after 1620." On another occasion, we found ourselves in Brooklyn having blintzes outside on picnic tables. My 4-year-old son was with us. My wife was telling people how my son was starting to ask questions about sex. My son, hearing his name, said "What's sex?". Dennis said "See." A work-related anecdote. There was a manager in USG who managed to get on the nerves of many of us in Research. One day we came in to discover that he had been promoted and took a job in Japan. We were discussing this at lunch, and someone said "Why Japan?". Dennis said "They haven't opened their office on the moon yet." Steve PS: I certainly remember the belt buckle quip. That chip was so big that they could not finish the test patterns before the chip came back. So they generated random tests and compared the results until they found two that were the same. They concluded that these two chips were fabricated correctly, and went on from there. The chip had a number of flaws, and we scrambled to fix them in software. One was that the branch instruction garbled the last 4 bits of the branch target. So one of the guys hacked the assembler to make every label the center of a "target" of 32 NOP instructions. We were able to get the chip to run, and even run an asteroid game.... The guy to made the fix put up a sign outside of his office that said "BellMac chips fixed while U wait." The same VP was rather PO'd about this as well... ----- Original Message ----- From: "ches@Cheswick.com" <ches@cheswick.com> To:"Warren Toomey" <wkt@tuhs.org> Cc:<tuhs@tuhs.org> Sent:Fri, 29 Jun 2018 06:53:02 -0400 Subject:Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? Dennis, do you have any recommendations on good books to use the learn C? I don’t know, I never had to learn C. -dmr Message by ches. Tappos by iPad. > On Jun 29, 2018, at 3:53 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote: > > We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for ken-related > anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr anecdotes? > > I never met Dennis in person, but he was generous with his time about my > interest in Unix history; and also with sharing the material he still had. > > Dennis was very clever, though. He would bring out a new artifact and say: > well, here's what I still have of X. Pity it will never execute again, sigh. > > I'm sure he knew that I would take that as a challenge. Mind you, it worked, > which is why we now have the first Unix kernel in C, the 'nsys' kernel, and > the first two C compilers, in executable format. > > Any other good anecdotes? > > Cheers, Warren [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4091 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 0:50 ` Steve Johnson @ 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-06-30 11:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Johnson; +Cc: tuhs My memories of dmr are limited to one encounter when he came to Italy, more precisely to the University of Milan, in the late 70s or early 80s (cannot remember exactly, there’s a picture in Peter Salus’ book though). I was a child, had been introduced to Lisp as part of an experiment in teaching to primary school children but my dad, at the time teaching robotics in the nascent “Cybernetics” group of the Physics department, was starting me on C. As I was told this visitor was the R in the “K&R” book I felt I could finally ask “someone who knew” how printf() worked with a variable number of arguments. I was at best 10 and dmr patiently sat down and explained it to me in terms I could understand. I remember that he asked me if I understood pointers, I told him it was like putting a big arrow which you could move around, pointing to a house instead of actually using the house number and he smiled then taking the explanation on from there. I wish I could have met him again in my life to thank him for that time he dedicated to a child to demystify printf(). Arrigo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat 2018-06-30 23:29 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-07-03 17:34 ` Perry E. Metzger 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2018-06-30 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > I remember that he asked me if I understood pointers, I told him it was like putting a big arrow which you could move around, pointing to a house instead of actually using the house number and he smiled then taking the explanation on from there. > ok, where's the "Like" button?!?!??!? Just kidding, all, but what a wonderful story. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2018-06-30 23:29 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 4:17 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-01 11:42 ` ron 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-06-30 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs On 1 Jul 2018, at 00:42, Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote: > On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: >> I remember that he asked me if I understood pointers, I told him it was like putting a big arrow which you could move around, pointing to a house instead of actually using the house number and he smiled then taking the explanation on from there. >> > ok, where's the "Like" button?!?!??!? > > Just kidding, all, but what a wonderful story. By all accounts he was a wonderful person. Arrigo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 23:29 ` Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-07-01 4:17 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-01 11:42 ` ron 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-01 4:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arrigo Triulzi; +Cc: tuhs On Sun, Jul 01, 2018 at 01:29:24AM +0200, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > On 1 Jul 2018, at 00:42, Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote: > > On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > >> I remember that he asked me if I understood pointers, I told him it was like putting a big arrow which you could move around, pointing to a house instead of actually using the house number and he smiled then taking the explanation on from there. > >> > > ok, where's the "Like" button?!?!??!? > > > > Just kidding, all, but what a wonderful story. > > By all accounts he was a wonderful person. He really was. Always willing to teach someone who wasn't up to speed yet but was trying. That story about the 10 year old should be on a plaque somewhere. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 23:29 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 4:17 ` Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-01 11:42 ` ron 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: ron @ 2018-07-01 11:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Dennis always answered his emails and was very humble in the light of most of the UNIX guys holding him in god like status. I remember he'd sit with us in the lobby or cocktail lounge or by the pool at the USENIX meetings. Just happy to be hanging out with the rest of us. One year, while I was working for the Army and we were getting a lot of internal pressure to use Ada, I made a bunch of t-shirts up that had Ada Lovelace with a big red circle/slash (NO) on it. I pointed out that at the time there were several government projects to write internet routers contracted out and all mandated Ada. I developed one in house at the Army and wrote it in C (it also used media with UNIX boot blocks on it). I gave Dennis one of these shirts at a conference. I saw subsequent pictures of him wearing it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-07-01 8:28 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 11:34 ` ron 2018-07-03 17:34 ` Perry E. Metzger 2 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2018-07-01 5:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 338 bytes --] On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > As I was told this visitor was the R in the “K&R” book I felt I could > finally ask “someone who knew” how printf() worked with a variable > number of arguments. It wouldn't've used that awful nargs() call at that time, would it? I was glad when that horror was removed. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2018-07-01 8:28 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 11:34 ` ron 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-07-01 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On 1 Jul 2018, at 07:29, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote: > > On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > >> As I was told this visitor was the R in the “K&R” book I felt I could finally ask “someone who knew” how printf() worked with a variable number of arguments. > > It wouldn't've used that awful nargs() call at that time, would it? I was glad when that horror was removed. I was about 10 at the time, I hope you will excuse me for not recalling this detail. I just recall the way that he used my “arrows in the street” to explain how printf() walked through the argument list carrying an arrow on its shoulder, then did what it had to do until it got to the end of the street. As you can probably imagine it is still how I visualise the workings of printf() to this day. Note that this was pure K&R, pre-ANSI C varargs. Arrigo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-07-01 8:28 ` Arrigo Triulzi @ 2018-07-01 11:34 ` ron 2018-07-09 16:30 ` Random832 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: ron @ 2018-07-01 11:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Dave Horsfall', 'The Eunuchs Hysterical Society' Printf didn't use nargs (and still doesn't). It looked at the presence of the % markers and assumes that’s how many arguments were passed. It worked on the PDP-11 or any similar stack calling sequence. It was only after C got moved to some of the more varied architectures that VARARGS/STDARG was implemented to achieve some level of variable argument portability. Even so, there's not a concept of "nargs" to this day. The PDP-11 nargs was a kludge that looked at the calling code. This obviously didn't work if you were in split I-D mode (where you couldn't address the i-space). There was a published hack to rewire the processor to allow MTPI to work in user mode from your OWN I space to make it work. The bigger issue with the early printf is it just called putchar and putchar only output to stdout or what ever the global fout variable was set to. There was a comment in the manual that the fout concept was kludgy. -----Original Message----- From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Dave Horsfall Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 1:30 AM To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > As I was told this visitor was the R in the “K&R” book I felt I could > finally ask “someone who knew” how printf() worked with a variable > number of arguments. It wouldn't've used that awful nargs() call at that time, would it? I was glad when that horror was removed. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-01 11:34 ` ron @ 2018-07-09 16:30 ` Random832 2018-07-09 17:13 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2018-07-09 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Sun, Jul 1, 2018, at 07:34, ron@ronnatalie.com wrote: > The bigger issue with the early printf is it just called putchar and > putchar only output to stdout or what ever the global fout variable was > set to. > There was a comment in the manual that the fout concept was kludgy. V6 'iolib' printf has an interesting approach to fixing this: If the first argument was 0 through 9, it was taken to be a file descriptor, and the second argument was the format string. If it was -1, the second argument was the output string (as for later sprintf), and the third was the format string. Otherwise, the first argument was the format string. (I'm curious as to how much "iolib" was actually used, since it doesn't appear to have been included by default - there was a different printf routine in libc) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-09 16:30 ` Random832 @ 2018-07-09 17:13 ` Clem Cole 2018-07-10 5:54 ` arnold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2018-07-09 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1999 bytes --] With V5/V6 C I/O was a lot like what Larry was describing for getopts(3) it was all over over the map. There was the portable I/O library which I sort of think of as the prequel to studio but I don’t remember uSing it much. I must have run into most of the different ways people did I/O in some program(s) but I don’t remember any one off hand. I think the thing to remember is that at the time system programming languages such as C and Bliss were noted for not having I/O built into the language- it was supported externally. DEC (CMU) with Bliss had rich set of libraries (often in assembler already available) and force/matched by them with their users. Unix and C grew up independently which I think is part of why it was a tad more random. BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something as important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not become clearly deficient until after widespread success. On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:37 PM Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 1, 2018, at 07:34, ron@ronnatalie.com wrote: > > The bigger issue with the early printf is it just called putchar and > > putchar only output to stdout or what ever the global fout variable was > > set to. > > There was a comment in the manual that the fout concept was kludgy. > > V6 'iolib' printf has an interesting approach to fixing this: > > If the first argument was 0 through 9, it was taken to be a file > descriptor, and the second argument was the format string. If it was -1, > the second argument was the output string (as for later sprintf), and the > third was the format string. Otherwise, the first argument was the format > string. > > (I'm curious as to how much "iolib" was actually used, since it doesn't > appear to have been included by default - there was a different printf > routine in libc) > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2479 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-09 17:13 ` Clem Cole @ 2018-07-10 5:54 ` arnold 2018-07-10 6:09 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-10 14:10 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2018-07-10 5:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: random832, clemc; +Cc: tuhs Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was > still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something as > important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not > become clearly deficient until after widespread success. I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two years after V7 which was circa 1978. Here are the dates: -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/getopt.c -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the code and man page. Just a nit, (:-) Arnold ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-10 5:54 ` arnold @ 2018-07-10 6:09 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-10 7:19 ` arnold 2018-07-10 14:10 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: George Michaelson @ 2018-07-10 6:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: arnold; +Cc: TUHS main list ... and then somebody GNUified it. I seem to recall three huge flamewars in UUCP days: RFS vs NFS, STREAMS (the original) vs sockets, and getopt --no -noo --nooo=please --dont-make-me=do-that On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 3:54 PM, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > >> BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was >> still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something as >> important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not >> become clearly deficient until after widespread success. > > I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates > to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two years > after V7 which was circa 1978. > > Here are the dates: > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/getopt.c > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c > > But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt > didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to > adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the code > and man page. > > Just a nit, (:-) > > Arnold ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-10 6:09 ` George Michaelson @ 2018-07-10 7:19 ` arnold 2018-07-11 0:20 ` Noel Hunt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2018-07-10 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ggm, arnold; +Cc: tuhs RFS vs. NFS and sockets vs. STREAMS were much more serious; they were about the directions Unix would take going forward, where interoperability (RFS/NFS) and code portability (sockets/STREAMS) were big either/or issues. Had AT&T been smarter about its licensing, both RFS and STREAMS might have "won", but they weren't, and those technologies have all but disappeared. GNU getopt can be used in a source-compatible way with POSIX getopt; having long options is up to the programmer. I agree, there were aesthetic arguments, altough long options have mostly "won". I'm about as long-time a Unix aficianado as anyone else here, and for many things I find long options easier to remember than short ones. (To their credit, at least initially, the GNU project asked its developers to use the same long options in all programs for operations that were the same.) Arnold George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: > ... and then somebody GNUified it. I seem to recall three huge > flamewars in UUCP days: RFS vs NFS, STREAMS (the original) vs sockets, > and getopt > > --no -noo --nooo=please --dont-make-me=do-that > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 3:54 PM, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > >> BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was > >> still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something as > >> important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not > >> become clearly deficient until after widespread success. > > > > I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates > > to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two years > > after V7 which was circa 1978. > > > > Here are the dates: > > > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/getopt.c > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c > > > > But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt > > didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to > > adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the code > > and man page. > > > > Just a nit, (:-) > > > > Arnold ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-10 7:19 ` arnold @ 2018-07-11 0:20 ` Noel Hunt 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-13 9:08 ` [TUHS] " ches@Cheswick.com 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Noel Hunt @ 2018-07-11 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2562 bytes --] I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > RFS vs. NFS and sockets vs. STREAMS were much more serious; they were > about the directions Unix would take going forward, where interoperability > (RFS/NFS) and code portability (sockets/STREAMS) were big either/or issues. > > Had AT&T been smarter about its licensing, both RFS and STREAMS might > have "won", but they weren't, and those technologies have all but > disappeared. > > GNU getopt can be used in a source-compatible way with POSIX getopt; > having long options is up to the programmer. I agree, there were > aesthetic arguments, altough long options have mostly "won". I'm about > as long-time a Unix aficianado as anyone else here, and for many things > I find long options easier to remember than short ones. > > (To their credit, at least initially, the GNU project asked its developers > to use the same long options in all programs for operations that were > the same.) > > Arnold > > > George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: > > > ... and then somebody GNUified it. I seem to recall three huge > > flamewars in UUCP days: RFS vs NFS, STREAMS (the original) vs sockets, > > and getopt > > > > --no -noo --nooo=please --dont-make-me=do-that > > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 3:54 PM, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > > > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > > >> BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was > > >> still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for > something as > > >> important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would > not > > >> become clearly deficient until after widespread success. > > > > > > I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates > > > to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two > years > > > after V7 which was circa 1978. > > > > > > Here are the dates: > > > > > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 > usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/getopt.c > > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c > > > > > > But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt > > > didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to > > > adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the > code > > > and man page. > > > > > > Just a nit, (:-) > > > > > > Arnold > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3756 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 0:20 ` Noel Hunt @ 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 1:37 ` George Michaelson ` (2 more replies) 2018-07-13 9:08 ` [TUHS] " ches@Cheswick.com 1 sibling, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-11 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Hunt; +Cc: TUHS main list On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:20:50AM +1000, Noel Hunt wrote: > I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines > anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). > One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was > William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. It's nice but I like long opts. The getopt in BK (and now in L) looks like this and produces its own help (which does miss the short opts, my bad, I could fix that). Look at the default in the switch: int main(int ac, string av[]) { string c; string lopts[] = { "bigy:", "date-split", "exif", "exif-hover", "force", "index:", "names", "nav", "parallel:", "quiet", "regen", "reverse", "sharpen", "slide:", "thumbnails", "title:", "ysize:", }; while (c = getopt(av, "fj:", lopts)) { switch (c) { case "bigy": bigy = (int)optarg; break; case "date-split": dates = 1; break; case "exif": exif = 1; break; case "exif-hover": exif_hover = 1; break; case "f": case "force": case "regen": force = 1; break; case "index": indexf = optarg; break; case "j": case "parallel": parallel = (int)optarg; break; case "quiet": quiet = 1; break; case "names": names = 1; break; case "nav": nav = 1; break; case "reverse": reverse = 1; break; case "sharpen": sharpen = 1; break; case "slide": slidef = optarg; break; case "title": title = optarg; break; case "thumbnails": thumbnails = 1; break; case "ysize": ysize = (int)optarg; break; default: printf("Usage: photos.l"); foreach(c in lopts) { if (c =~ /(.*):/) { printf(" --%s=<val>", $1); } else { printf(" --%s", c); } } printf("\n"); return(0); } } ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-11 1:37 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-11 1:37 ` ron minnich 2018-07-11 3:34 ` [TUHS] getopt (was " Bakul Shah 2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: George Michaelson @ 2018-07-11 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list De gustibus non est disputandum. De unibus non est synchronus and um. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 1:37 ` George Michaelson @ 2018-07-11 1:37 ` ron minnich 2018-07-11 3:12 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 3:34 ` [TUHS] getopt (was " Bakul Shah 2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2018-07-11 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2880 bytes --] this is a DMR anecdote? On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:32 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:20:50AM +1000, Noel Hunt wrote: > > I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines > > anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). > > One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was > > William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. > > It's nice but I like long opts. The getopt in BK (and now in L) > looks like this and produces its own help (which does miss the > short opts, my bad, I could fix that). Look at the default in > the switch: > > int > main(int ac, string av[]) > { > string c; > string lopts[] = { > "bigy:", > "date-split", > "exif", > "exif-hover", > "force", > "index:", > "names", > "nav", > "parallel:", > "quiet", > "regen", > "reverse", > "sharpen", > "slide:", > "thumbnails", > "title:", > "ysize:", > }; > > while (c = getopt(av, "fj:", lopts)) { > switch (c) { > case "bigy": bigy = (int)optarg; break; > case "date-split": dates = 1; break; > case "exif": exif = 1; break; > case "exif-hover": exif_hover = 1; break; > case "f": > case "force": > case "regen": > force = 1; break; > case "index": indexf = optarg; break; > case "j": > case "parallel": parallel = (int)optarg; break; > case "quiet": quiet = 1; break; > case "names": names = 1; break; > case "nav": nav = 1; break; > case "reverse": reverse = 1; break; > case "sharpen": sharpen = 1; break; > case "slide": slidef = optarg; break; > case "title": title = optarg; break; > case "thumbnails": thumbnails = 1; break; > case "ysize": ysize = (int)optarg; break; > default: > printf("Usage: photos.l"); > foreach(c in lopts) { > if (c =~ /(.*):/) { > printf(" --%s=<val>", $1); > } else { > printf(" --%s", c); > } > } > printf("\n"); > return(0); > } > } > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4303 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 1:37 ` ron minnich @ 2018-07-11 3:12 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-11 3:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ron minnich; +Cc: TUHS main list Nope, it went sideways. But some of the most fun information I've gotten here went sideways. But if I offend I do beg your forgiveness. On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 06:37:23PM -0700, ron minnich wrote: > this is a DMR anecdote? > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:32 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:20:50AM +1000, Noel Hunt wrote: > > > I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines > > > anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). > > > One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was > > > William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. > > > > It's nice but I like long opts. The getopt in BK (and now in L) > > looks like this and produces its own help (which does miss the > > short opts, my bad, I could fix that). Look at the default in > > the switch: > > > > int > > main(int ac, string av[]) > > { > > string c; > > string lopts[] = { > > "bigy:", > > "date-split", > > "exif", > > "exif-hover", > > "force", > > "index:", > > "names", > > "nav", > > "parallel:", > > "quiet", > > "regen", > > "reverse", > > "sharpen", > > "slide:", > > "thumbnails", > > "title:", > > "ysize:", > > }; > > > > while (c = getopt(av, "fj:", lopts)) { > > switch (c) { > > case "bigy": bigy = (int)optarg; break; > > case "date-split": dates = 1; break; > > case "exif": exif = 1; break; > > case "exif-hover": exif_hover = 1; break; > > case "f": > > case "force": > > case "regen": > > force = 1; break; > > case "index": indexf = optarg; break; > > case "j": > > case "parallel": parallel = (int)optarg; break; > > case "quiet": quiet = 1; break; > > case "names": names = 1; break; > > case "nav": nav = 1; break; > > case "reverse": reverse = 1; break; > > case "sharpen": sharpen = 1; break; > > case "slide": slidef = optarg; break; > > case "title": title = optarg; break; > > case "thumbnails": thumbnails = 1; break; > > case "ysize": ysize = (int)optarg; break; > > default: > > printf("Usage: photos.l"); > > foreach(c in lopts) { > > if (c =~ /(.*):/) { > > printf(" --%s=<val>", $1); > > } else { > > printf(" --%s", c); > > } > > } > > printf("\n"); > > return(0); > > } > > } > > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] getopt (was Re: Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 1:37 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-11 1:37 ` ron minnich @ 2018-07-11 3:34 ` Bakul Shah 2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2018-07-11 3:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:31:27 -0700 Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: Larry McVoy writes: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:20:50AM +1000, Noel Hunt wrote: > > I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines > > anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). > > One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was > > William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. plan9 arg macros are indeed very nice. > It's nice but I like long opts. The getopt in BK (and now in L) > looks like this and produces its own help (which does miss the > short opts, my bad, I could fix that). Look at the default in > the switch: > > string c; > string lopts[] = { > "bigy:", > "date-split", ... > "title:", > "ysize:", > }; > > while (c = getopt(av, "fj:", lopts)) { > switch (c) { > case "bigy": bigy = (int)optarg; break; > case "date-split": dates = 1; break; ... > case "title": title = optarg; break; > case "thumbnails": thumbnails = 1; break; > case "ysize": ysize = (int)optarg; break; > default: > printf("Usage: photos.l"); [You can also do a switch on string in Go.] Having to write the same strings twice is a pain. May be even three times, if you add usage()! I don't much like long options as they tend to proliferate. -- Your typical engineer doesn't like to make hard choices so indecisions turn into options! If there have to be long options, I want to be able to abbreviate them and I want word completion and context sensitive help as invariably long options end up having complex semantics. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-11 0:20 ` Noel Hunt 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy @ 2018-07-13 9:08 ` ches@Cheswick.com 2018-07-13 14:10 ` ron 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: ches@Cheswick.com @ 2018-07-13 9:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Hunt; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2882 bytes --] I am a fan of these routines, and use the regularly, but I didn’t write them. Message by ches. Tappos by iPad. > On Jul 10, 2018, at 9:50 PM, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm surprised why anyone would bother with these routines > anymore, given the startling simplicity of Plan9's arg(3). > One stands in awe of such simplicity. I believe it was > William Cheswick who designed it, but I may be wrong. > > >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: >> RFS vs. NFS and sockets vs. STREAMS were much more serious; they were >> about the directions Unix would take going forward, where interoperability >> (RFS/NFS) and code portability (sockets/STREAMS) were big either/or issues. >> >> Had AT&T been smarter about its licensing, both RFS and STREAMS might >> have "won", but they weren't, and those technologies have all but >> disappeared. >> >> GNU getopt can be used in a source-compatible way with POSIX getopt; >> having long options is up to the programmer. I agree, there were >> aesthetic arguments, altough long options have mostly "won". I'm about >> as long-time a Unix aficianado as anyone else here, and for many things >> I find long options easier to remember than short ones. >> >> (To their credit, at least initially, the GNU project asked its developers >> to use the same long options in all programs for operations that were >> the same.) >> >> Arnold >> >> >> George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote: >> >> > ... and then somebody GNUified it. I seem to recall three huge >> > flamewars in UUCP days: RFS vs NFS, STREAMS (the original) vs sockets, >> > and getopt >> > >> > --no -noo --nooo=please --dont-make-me=do-that >> > >> > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 3:54 PM, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: >> > > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was >> > >> still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something as >> > >> important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not >> > >> become clearly deficient until after widespread success. >> > > >> > > I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates >> > > to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two years >> > > after V7 which was circa 1978. >> > > >> > > Here are the dates: >> > > >> > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/getopt.c >> > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c >> > > >> > > But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt >> > > didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to >> > > adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the code >> > > and man page. >> > > >> > > Just a nit, (:-) >> > > >> > > Arnold [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4183 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-13 9:08 ` [TUHS] " ches@Cheswick.com @ 2018-07-13 14:10 ` ron 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: ron @ 2018-07-13 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'The Eunuchs Hysterical Society' [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 308 bytes --] Years ago I remember someone suggesting that freeware be renamed “Fluegelware” after Andrew Fluegelman, a pioneer in the concept who had recently died. I suggested we rename the C compiler “Ritchie” and the I got a “Let’s nip this in the bud” email back from Dennis in short order. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2288 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-07-10 5:54 ` arnold 2018-07-10 6:09 ` George Michaelson @ 2018-07-10 14:10 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2018-07-10 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1208 bytes --] Right (and I agree) -- widespread usage/really being noticed. And that was because it came in the Summit releases not the Research/UCB stream, which did not help either. ᐧ On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:54 AM, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > BY the time dmr adds stdio, it was > > still early enough in the life to displace the randomness for something > as > > important as I/O, whereas lack of use of something.like getopt would not > > become clearly deficient until after widespread success. > > I think "widespread access" is more like it for getopt. Getopt dates > to 1980; it was in System III (I just checked). That's only about two years > after V7 which was circa 1978. > > Here are the dates: > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 1073 Apr 11 1980 usr/src/lib/libc/pdp11/gen/ > getopt.c > -rw-rw-r-- 1 arnold arnold 2273 May 16 1980 usr/src/man/man3/getopt.3c > > But the world outside the Bell System didn't have System III. Getopt > didn't become "popular" until System V or so, and became much easier to > adopt once Henry Spencer published his public domain rewrite of the code > and man page. > > Just a nit, (:-) > > Arnold > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2108 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2018-07-03 17:34 ` Perry E. Metzger 2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Perry E. Metzger @ 2018-07-03 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Incredibly lame anecdote follows: Decades ago, I buttonholed dmr at a Usenix ATC and asked him a bunch of questions about early Unix kernels. I can't remember any of the specifics any longer (which is a shame in itself), but I do remember that instead of shooing me away, he was insanely polite and kind even though he didn't know me and had no reason to be so nice. Afterwards someone (I think it may have been Tom Christiansen) pointed out to me that I'd taken up far too much of his time, and said something to the effect that one had to be careful not to take excess advantage of his kindness. Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry@piermont.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 7:53 [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? Warren Toomey 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com @ 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-06-30 0:06 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2018-06-30 14:20 ` John P. Linderman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2018-06-29 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Warren Toomey wrote: > We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for > ken-related anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr > anecdotes? Wasn't it Dennis whose morphed picture featured on a t-shirt at an AUUG conference in the 80s? I can't seem to find a reference right now,,, -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2018-06-30 0:06 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2018-06-30 14:20 ` John P. Linderman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2018-06-30 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 883 bytes --] On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 9:55:02 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Warren Toomey wrote: > >> We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for >> ken-related anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr >> anecdotes? > > Wasn't it Dennis whose morphed picture featured on a t-shirt at an AUUG > conference in the 80s? I can't seem to find a reference right now,,, No, that was Peter Weinberger, as dmr confirmed. There's quite a story behind what happened to the stencil. I'll let Warren tell it, but if you want to cheat, check http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-oct2002.php#17 Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-06-30 0:06 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2018-06-30 14:20 ` John P. Linderman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: John P. Linderman @ 2018-06-30 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 455 bytes --] Peter and the magnets On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Warren Toomey wrote: > > We do have ken on the list, so I won't be presumptious to ask for >> ken-related anecdotes, but would anybody like to share some dmr anecdotes? >> > > Wasn't it Dennis whose morphed picture featured on a t-shirt at an AUUG > conference in the 80s? I can't seem to find a reference right now,,, > > -- Dave > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 972 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: pjw.jpg --] [-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 130047 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-07-13 14:11 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-06-29 7:53 [TUHS] Any Good dmr Anecdotes? Warren Toomey 2018-06-29 10:53 ` ches@Cheswick.com 2018-06-29 12:51 ` John P. Linderman 2018-06-30 0:50 ` Steve Johnson 2018-06-30 11:44 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-06-30 22:42 ` Arthur Krewat 2018-06-30 23:29 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 4:17 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-01 11:42 ` ron 2018-07-01 5:29 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-07-01 8:28 ` Arrigo Triulzi 2018-07-01 11:34 ` ron 2018-07-09 16:30 ` Random832 2018-07-09 17:13 ` Clem Cole 2018-07-10 5:54 ` arnold 2018-07-10 6:09 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-10 7:19 ` arnold 2018-07-11 0:20 ` Noel Hunt 2018-07-11 1:31 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 1:37 ` George Michaelson 2018-07-11 1:37 ` ron minnich 2018-07-11 3:12 ` Larry McVoy 2018-07-11 3:34 ` [TUHS] getopt (was " Bakul Shah 2018-07-13 9:08 ` [TUHS] " ches@Cheswick.com 2018-07-13 14:10 ` ron 2018-07-10 14:10 ` Clem Cole 2018-07-03 17:34 ` Perry E. Metzger 2018-06-29 23:55 ` Dave Horsfall 2018-06-30 0:06 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2018-06-30 14:20 ` John P. Linderman
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