From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAD_ENC_HEADER,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LOTS_OF_MONEY, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_MONEY_PERCENT autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 53f9c832 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:10:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D658E94FD0; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 08:10:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE4894FBA; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 08:09:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=mit.edu header.i=@mit.edu header.b="Nt66muLE"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6EF6D94FB8; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 08:09:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr690121.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.69.121]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A4C194FB7 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 08:09:39 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mit.edu; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8s/8MhJ4I8HIv+3jZDeRP6zY70PbvjjvTA/Do7tQsjk=; b=Nt66muLEKX2pvdx37KCuRhpvM7cNNKvBQwvJXoOsWtkVVHrO8JBMqu7oJnWhU5oe0GO9W6YhgDtE9qwNftw5UfY0nxfI4NFRXh60YsngontDAkobs8DTuNCEtQtPD34Ohbm+AESQtHuGSCXI4HyYXTMSFo019vsd8MuVTLUFtWA= Received: from BL0PR0102CA0008.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:207:18::21) by CY4PR0101MB3110.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10b6:910:3f::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1537.24; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:09:37 +0000 Received: from DM3NAM03FT011.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e49::204) by BL0PR0102CA0008.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:207:18::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1537.24 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:09:37 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 18.9.28.11) smtp.mailfrom=mit.edu; tuhs.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tuhs.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by DM3NAM03FT011.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.82.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1471.13 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:09:36 +0000 Received: from callcc.thunk.org (hirgntcl01n04.hicv.net [173.197.107.24]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x0GM9X1t006483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:09:35 -0500 Received: by callcc.thunk.org (Postfix, from userid 15806) id 89BA67A48CB; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:09:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:09:32 -0500 From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" To: Larry McVoy Message-ID: <20190116220932.GB9343@mit.edu> References: <20190116172950.GL7733@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190116172950.GL7733@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.9.28.11; IPV:CAL; SCL:-1; CTRY:US; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(346002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(2980300002)(189003)(199004)(478600001)(86362001)(6246003)(6266002)(26826003)(6916009)(8936002)(97756001)(16586007)(4326008)(246002)(2906002)(186003)(8676002)(26005)(5660300001)(39060400002)(75432002)(50466002)(90966002)(42186006)(106002)(36906005)(316002)(786003)(36756003)(46406003)(54906003)(58126008)(106466001)(103686004)(88552002)(305945005)(23726003)(446003)(11346002)(356004)(229853002)(486006)(1076003)(47776003)(2616005)(14444005)(476003)(126002)(336012)(76176011)(33656002)(52956003)(18370500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR0101MB3110; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR0101MB3110 Subject: Re: [TUHS] DEC and Dave Cutler (was Re: The John Snow's of the UNIX family) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:29:50AM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > > I have a different view, having been at Sun when Sun was eating DEC's > lunch. Sun made stuff that was just as good as what DEC built but they > were cheaper. DEC couldn't adapt to decent machines that didn't cost > a big pile. > > History repeats itself, Sun couldn't wean itself off $20,000 workstations > when you could get an almost as fast PC for 1/4th or less of that price > point. This is applicable in the Open Source world as well, and there it's a much more clearly an example of the "Better is Worse", "New Jersey Style" vs. "The MIT Approach"/"The Right Thing" debate. Example: Linux had PCMCIA support before the *BSD variants, and even when the BSD's had PCMCIA support, the PCMCIA card (most commonly, for WiFi) had to be plugged when the system was booted. Where as for years ahead of *BSD, Linux had hot-plug PCMCIA support --- but if you ejected the card, there was a 30-50% chance the system would crash. (Which could be lowered if you carefully shutdown the network, and waited until all open/pending TCP connections that couldn't be closed had timed out, etc.) Eventually, the *BSD's pulled ahead of Linux, and had rock-solid PC Card support, and it took a lot longer for Linux's hot-eject support to be fully stable. For most users, of couse, hot-pluggable PCMCIA was way more important than stability problems when you ejected the card, especially when it usually worked (especially if you were careful). And if you have more users, you are much more likely to get bug reports, and more likely to recruit developers (which in the open source world, are more likely to stick around if you are willing to accept less-than-perfect patches, as opposed to insisting that they be picture-perfect before they can be committed). There's a downside with this approach, of course, which is that it may take a lot longer to get the code cleaned up after the 1.0 "launch" of the feature. - Ted