From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 2d2fba8e for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:59:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 499509B900; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:59:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4077E9B8FA; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:59:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2AEC09B8FA; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:59:27 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 1292 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:59:26 AEST Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AED8E9B8F9 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:59:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x1EKbpdH017244 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:37:51 -0800 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x1EKbpnR017241 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:37:51 -0800 Message-Id: <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org In-reply-to: <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu> References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu> Comments: In-reply-to Deborah Scherrer message dated "Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:02:00 -0800." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <17239.1550176671.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:37:51 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] Women in computing X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Deborah Scherrer writes: > There have been several studies. As I remember, girls in school do > indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males. And > girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males. So the > studies came to no conclusions. > > My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor. If > I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting > into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and > that field. But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that > idea... > > And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam. She had > many grad students of both sexes. She says she had to practically force > the women to stay in the field. They would see the guys getting overly > focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the > goals of the project. The women would get frustrated and complain to > the professor. She would have to convince them that the guys just did > that, and that the women should stay on track. > > I do admit, I have a husband who does that. Personally, I have ALWAYS > looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just > being a computer. But I am usually out-shouted. ;-) I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment. But I agree that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today. There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that women leave the field because they're more responsible than men. The theory is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with the security and stability necessary to support a family. When women look at STEM fields they see people being laid off, being forced to train their outsourced replacements, and so on. The American government sends out the mixed messages of "we need people trained in STEM" along with "we don't care about science". Plus there are all of the pontifications about how AI is going to replace many of the jobs. So this theory says that it just doesn't look like an attractive field to people who want stability and security, and that women statistically want that more than men do. Jon