The Unix Heritage Society mailing list
 help / Atom feed
* [TUHS] Women in computing
@ 2019-02-14 13:14 John P. Linderman
  2019-02-14 14:02 ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-02-14 18:51 ` Deborah Scherrer
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: John P. Linderman @ 2019-02-14 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Unix Heritage Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 83 bytes --]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 260 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 13:14 [TUHS] Women in computing John P. Linderman
@ 2019-02-14 14:02 ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-02-14 18:51 ` Deborah Scherrer
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Finn O'Leary @ 2019-02-14 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John P. Linderman, The Unix Heritage Society

On Thu, 2019-02-14 at 08:14 -0500, John P. Linderman wrote:

>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html

This is something I noticed when I was watching the 1980s MIT
OCW videos of Sussman and Ableson teaching SICP. If you pay
attention to the glances the camera takes of the audience, it's
got a wide diversity of age-groups and genders (Of course (heh),
I don't know if that's because of the circumstances of that
particular course, or if MIT's entry requirements have changed.
I wonder if anyone here can clarify that).

-- 
- Finn
PGP fingerprint: 739B 6C5C 3DE1 33FA
"Too enough is always not much!"

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 13:14 [TUHS] Women in computing John P. Linderman
  2019-02-14 14:02 ` Finn O'Leary
@ 2019-02-14 18:51 ` Deborah Scherrer
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Deborah Scherrer @ 2019-02-14 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 436 bytes --]

In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women. 
Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every 
year.  I also used to count the number of women at the Usenix 
conferences.  By the time of a large one, about 3,000 people in San 
Francisco, I counted 12 women...

On 2/14/19 5:14 AM, John P. Linderman wrote:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1070 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
@ 2019-02-14 19:29 jnc
  2019-02-14 19:47 ` Seth Morabito
  2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: jnc @ 2019-02-14 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Deborah Scherrer

    > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
    > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
    > year.

Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?

	     Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 19:29 jnc
@ 2019-02-14 19:47 ` Seth Morabito
  2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Seth Morabito @ 2019-02-14 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Deborah Scherrer
> 
>     > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
>     > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
>     > year.
> 
> Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?

I have seen some interesting stories about this phenomenon. There was a piece on NPR's "Planet Money" in 2014 that offers one possible explanation that home computers in the 1980s were more commonly bought for boys than for girls, and that this eventually created an experience gap. Prior to the home computer revolution, they reason, no experience with computers was assumed when pursuing math and computer science in college, but afterward, experience with home computers was assumed, and boys had more of it than girls.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

> 	     Noel

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web@loomcom.com

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 19:29 jnc
  2019-02-14 19:47 ` Seth Morabito
@ 2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 20:30   ` Larry McVoy
  2019-02-14 20:37   ` Jon Steinhart
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Deborah Scherrer @ 2019-02-14 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
studies came to no conclusions.

My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
idea...

And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
that, and that the women should stay on track.

I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)


On 2/14/19 11:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
>
>      > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
>      > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
>      > year.
>
> Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?
>
> 	     Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
@ 2019-02-14 20:30   ` Larry McVoy
  2019-02-14 20:37   ` Jon Steinhart
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-02-14 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Deborah Scherrer; +Cc: tuhs

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:02:00PM -0800, Deborah Scherrer wrote:
> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If I
> were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting into
> computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and that field.
> But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that idea...

I'm decades past high school but have one kid just out of high school and
another still in.  So some conduit of info there.  And I coached hockey
at Los Gatos for a couple of years, a little more insight there.

From what I can tell, things are pretty different.  When I was going through
high school and college, being a nerd wasn't cool, nerds didn't get anywhere
near the popular girls.  These days, the girls have figured out that the
nerds have a future so they like that.  In general, there seems to be a lot
less cliques and bullying.

I would have thought girls seeing nerds as having positives would make them
want to be part of the CS world but maybe not.

I do think, given that work is frequently a place where you can find a
partner (I found my wife, or she found me, at SGI), that it is a problem
if there isn't a good balance.  If you get 10% women then every time a
new one shows up the sharks will circle.  Not exactly a welcoming
environment.

> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had
> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force the
> women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly focused
> on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the goals of the
> project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to the professor.  She
> would have to convince them that the guys just did that, and that the women
> should stay on track.

That's true for specialists.  And it is a reason that CS schools should 
teach systems programming.  You really can't do well in that unless you
see the whole picture.  You can fake it for a while but eventually you
need to see the whole picture to figure out where you need to be putting
effort.  I was visiting my old systems prof in Madison and he said that
systems programming is coming back, employers like Google have been
bitching that nobody knows how to do kernel work or even think about it.

I believe it, I get "bug" reports about LMbench only to find they are
trying to benchmark a VM.  What kind of idiot tries to measure a VM?
Using microbenchmarks?  This was a CS grad student!

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 20:30   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-02-14 20:37   ` Jon Steinhart
  2019-02-14 22:22     ` Toby Thain
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2019-02-14 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Deborah Scherrer writes:
> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
> studies came to no conclusions.
>
> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
> idea...
>
> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>
> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)

I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.

There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
the security and stability necessary to support a family.  When women look
at STEM fields they see people being laid off, being forced to train their
outsourced replacements, and so on.  The American government sends out the
mixed messages of "we need people trained in STEM" along with "we don't care
about science".  Plus there are all of the pontifications about how AI is
going to replace many of the jobs.  So this theory says that it just doesn't
look like an attractive field to people who want stability and security, and
that women statistically want that more than men do.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 20:37   ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2019-02-14 22:22     ` Toby Thain
  2019-02-14 22:37       ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 23:40       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Toby Thain @ 2019-02-14 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2019-02-14 3:37 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Deborah Scherrer writes:
>> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
>> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
>> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
>> studies came to no conclusions.
>>
>> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
>> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
>> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
>> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
>> idea...
>>
>> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
>> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
>> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
>> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
>> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
>> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
>> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>>
>> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
>> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
>> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)
> 
> I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
> getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
> that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
> to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.
> 
> There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
> women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory

I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
thread. Oh well.

> is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
> the security and stability necessary to support a family.  ...
> 
> Jon
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 22:22     ` Toby Thain
@ 2019-02-14 22:37       ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 23:35         ` Andy Kosela
  2019-02-14 23:40       ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Deborah Scherrer @ 2019-02-14 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Actually, I suspect it's just the opposite.   For example, veterinarians 
used to be entirely male.   Why, cause they made Big Bucks.  Then, as 
salaries went down, more women got into the field. Why, because they 
cared about the animals.  Now vets make something like $25K when  they 
get out of their 7-8 years of school, and they are almost all female.

I never did anything cause of the money (but then, I married very young 
and had a quite capable husband who ended up a professor at Stanford).  
At any rate, I chose my major, my grad studies, and my 2 careers cause I 
loved the fields.   Took a 45% cut in salary when I went from high tech 
to Stanford/NASA.  Didn't even think about that....


On 2/14/19 2:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2019-02-14 3:37 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
>> Deborah Scherrer writes:
>>> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do
>>> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And
>>> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the
>>> studies came to no conclusions.
>>>
>>> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If
>>> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting
>>> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and
>>> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that
>>> idea...
>>>
>>> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had
>>> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force
>>> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly
>>> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the
>>> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to
>>> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did
>>> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>>>
>>> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS
>>> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just
>>> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)
>> I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
>> getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
>> that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
>> to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.
>>
>> There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
>> women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
> I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
> thread. Oh well.
>
>> is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
>> the security and stability necessary to support a family.  ...
>>
>> Jon
>>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 22:37       ` Deborah Scherrer
@ 2019-02-14 23:35         ` Andy Kosela
  2019-02-14 23:45           ` Thomas Kellar
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Andy Kosela @ 2019-02-14 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society; +Cc: COFF

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 470 bytes --]

<SNIP>

Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would
be better suited for it.

And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some
folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.
In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why
they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.
And as we know nothing can come from just one number...

--Andy

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 556 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 22:22     ` Toby Thain
  2019-02-14 22:37       ` Deborah Scherrer
@ 2019-02-14 23:40       ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-02-14 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

> > There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
> > women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
> 
> I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
> thread. Oh well.

<rant>

Politically correct(?) thoughts that attempt to counter facts aren't
helpful to *any* discussion.

Yeah, there are always going to be people that buck the norms, that
doesn't change the fact that most members of both genders are going show
traits found in their gender.  The exceptions don't break the rules.

You might be educated by listening to what transgender people who are
on hormone therapy have to say.  MtF will tell you they lose a ton of
upper body strenght.  Hormones are a thing, backed by lots of science,
and men and women have different hormones and are, as a result, different.

You'll notice I never used the terms "better" or "worse".  Just different.
I'm all for more women in CS, if they want to be there (and the people of
CS, the dudes, have work to do to make the women want to be there).

I fully agree that both genders should be encouraged to try to succeed at
whatever they want.  To a point.  Pushing people to do something that 
they'll never be good at is mean.  Figuring if they will/won't be good
is sometimes tricky, sometimes obvious.

I just wish people wouldn't bring political correctness into discussions,
it doesn't help.  I also get that people don't like being put in neat
little boxes.  But taking away those boxes for the exceptions is not
always the right thing.  Are you fine with fire departments changing the
physical fitness rules so women can join?  As in full on join, not be put
on the radios or driving, stuff that they can do just fine, but full on
fire fighters?  I dunno about you, but 100 pound woman is not who I want
to see when my 200 body needs to be carried out of a burning building.

Rather than try and make everyone fit into the same boxes, why not sort
them into the boxes where they can excel?  If some buff woman can meet
the requirements to be a fire fighter, go for it, go her.  But don't
change the requirements so woman without the necessary strength can get
the job, that's just putting her in a position where she won't succeed.
And that's not helpful at all.

We're CS people, we know how to optimize, and I can assure you it won't
work by saying everyone is capable of everything.  

I coached roller hockey and it is the exact opposite of saying everyone
can do everything.  You learn each person's strengths and their
weaknesses, play to the strengths, figure out which weaknesses can be
turned into strengths, and leave the ones that can't in the locker room.
I've seen women at the adult level of hockey that can blow away 99%
of most men but that's an exception.  Here's the norm: the US Women's
National team practices against high school boys because they are evenly
matched, the national men's team would crush them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqJk-JEkdIo

Same thing in tennis:

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-male-professional-tennis-players-are-better-than-female-professional-ones

Putting everyone in one box is unfair to one gender or the other, depending
on the box.

</rant>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 23:35         ` Andy Kosela
@ 2019-02-14 23:45           ` Thomas Kellar
  2019-02-14 23:46             ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 23:52             ` Jon Steinhart
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Kellar @ 2019-02-14 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

I am learning from the discussion.  I disagree with the binary
argument.  Women and men both have personalities and brains that range
over a huge spectrum of differences. It is society that tries to force
them into particular molds.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:36 PM Andy Kosela  wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would be better suited for it.
>
> And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.  In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.  And as we know nothing can come from just one number...
>
> --Andy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 23:45           ` Thomas Kellar
@ 2019-02-14 23:46             ` Deborah Scherrer
  2019-02-14 23:52             ` Jon Steinhart
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Deborah Scherrer @ 2019-02-14 23:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Thanks, Thomas.


On 2/14/19 3:45 PM, Thomas Kellar wrote:
> I am learning from the discussion.  I disagree with the binary
> argument.  Women and men both have personalities and brains that range
> over a huge spectrum of differences. It is society that tries to force
> them into particular molds.
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:36 PM Andy Kosela  wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would be better suited for it.
>>
>> And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.  In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.  And as we know nothing can come from just one number...
>>
>> --Andy


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Women in computing
  2019-02-14 23:45           ` Thomas Kellar
  2019-02-14 23:46             ` Deborah Scherrer
@ 2019-02-14 23:52             ` Jon Steinhart
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2019-02-14 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Another interesting note on this topic.  I saw a presentation on the
Diana Project a few months ago, and it seems like it's making a real
positive difference for women in computing.  Check it out.

Without intending to set off anybody's political correctness alarms,
an interesting interesting comment from the presentation was that a
large percentage of the current crop of female computer folks are
into cryptography.  Without passing any sort of judgement on it, it
seems like those sort of puzzle-solving problems are sucking a lot
of women into CS.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-02-14 13:14 [TUHS] Women in computing John P. Linderman
2019-02-14 14:02 ` Finn O'Leary
2019-02-14 18:51 ` Deborah Scherrer
2019-02-14 19:29 jnc
2019-02-14 19:47 ` Seth Morabito
2019-02-14 20:02 ` Deborah Scherrer
2019-02-14 20:30   ` Larry McVoy
2019-02-14 20:37   ` Jon Steinhart
2019-02-14 22:22     ` Toby Thain
2019-02-14 22:37       ` Deborah Scherrer
2019-02-14 23:35         ` Andy Kosela
2019-02-14 23:45           ` Thomas Kellar
2019-02-14 23:46             ` Deborah Scherrer
2019-02-14 23:52             ` Jon Steinhart
2019-02-14 23:40       ` Larry McVoy

The Unix Heritage Society mailing list

Archives are clonable: git clone --mirror http://inbox.vuxu.org/tuhs

Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://inbox.vuxu.org/vuxu.archive.tuhs


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/ public-inbox